2008 Victory Vision: What’s The Heck Is That?

Touring bikes are not my passion and highly futuristic designs not my cup of tea. So, when I had several pictures of the new Victory Vision stare at me, I became speechless (translate by what am I going to write about this one). Victory Motorcycles presents the new Vision model as the most progressive American luxury-touring bike ever built.  This high tech V-Twin cruiser is the result of more than 6 years of research and development and the Vision models will be available in September. Insiders of the industry know that (thanks to the baby boomers) the “Bagger” segment is the fastest growing. The most valued too, in terms of dollars spent. In addition to its very 21st century look that I let you appreciate or hate, the Vision has an impressive list of features. 50-degree Freedom V-Twin (size undisclosed). Exhaust mufflers nestled in slots under the shell saddlebags. Electric windshield and adjustable side wind deflectors. 6-gallon gas tank (minimum 200 miles range) with incorporated stereo controls. Satellite radio. GPS. MP3 support. Heated grips and seat. 65.6 wheelbase. 26.5” seat height. 29-degree rake. 5.4” of trail Front suspension looks to be the same 43mm fork from the Vegas line. Rear shock is said to have some measure of adjustability. 300mm rotors using three-piston calipers. Antilock brakes (not confirmed). And of course a price well above 20 K for the 2 versions (Vision Street & Vision Tour with Top Case. Production is supposed to start in June and it’s only at this date that all definitive specifications will be released. My head is spinning. Is the Vision the future of American touring? Maybe. You will tell me what you think. At least I am going to know how many bagger riders read this Blog. But first, go to the special website Polaris/Victory created for its new touring bikes. Victory Vision Experience. It is worth looking at the pictures.  



41 Responses to “2008 Victory Vision: What’s The Heck Is That?”

  1. 1 mike beland Jan 22nd, 2007 at 2:48 pm

    wont sell!!! it looks too futuristic anytime some manufacturer gets ahead of the times they dont get rewarded for it…bmw k bikes, bmw roadsters, honda blackbird, just because its technically perfect and everything the focus group needs to tour with. it doesnt look right, and to sell in america we will put form over function and retro is in…mustang, t-bird, gt-40, ford understands it, we are searching back for our youth in design but want the old look with modern underpinnings for performance and mileage. this bike just wont sell on technical merit.

  2. 2 Ben Lamboeuf Jan 23rd, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    Good argument, Mike.

    The Vision can come as a big shock to the unsuspecting American “biker”. I understand that, and it seems as if the folks at Victory knew this all along. Victory’s approach to designing a bagger was to not go the H-D way and offer a FLH clone. They know that Milwaukee has that segment declined at all tenses, from the Road King to the Ultra Classic. All H-D bikes are offering classic styling (except the V-Rod). They cater to a more conservative audience, more traditional.

    Rather than trying to out-harley H-D, Victory is trying to throw their line in waters less fished (to make another lame fishing analogy). At any rate, comparing the Vision to a BMW is rather audacious. No, no ,no… Victory wanted their motor to be displayed prominently as “the jewel in its casing” as they say… They didn’t hide it under plastic covers and serpentine belts and cooling tubes and radiators. In fact,the Vision still uses an air-cooled motor.

    Well, I dig the Vision and can’t wait to put my hands on one. I think that it will be a good conversation piece and will attract riders who dare to be different. Time will tell.

  3. 3 Noodles Jan 23rd, 2007 at 12:31 pm


    It looks like something Yamaha or honda would design. I find the shape of the rear and saddle bags to be down right ugly. I don’t think it will be a rare collectors item in the future.


  4. 4 Noodles Jan 23rd, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    I’m sorry but I need to learn to proof read before I submit. In my last post I mixed two thoughts, let me correct myself. I do think it will be a rare collectors item because I don’t think it is going to sell well.


  5. 5 two wheels Jan 23rd, 2007 at 4:20 pm

    I test rode a 2005 Touring Cruiser, and I thought it was better that either the Road Kings or FLSTCs I’ve riden, but I could not get past the glass bags with the integrated lights.

    Now they come up with these bikes. I’m certain they will be high quality and powerful, but how many people riding a Goldwing or Royal Star are thinking to themselves “I can’t wait until I can buy an American cruiser with heavy duty farings”?

    I hate to see Victory stumble because we need a viable American alternative.

  6. 6 On The Road Jan 23rd, 2007 at 9:20 pm

    Baggers equal Baby Boomers. They want classic retro designs. You are not obliged to be futuristic to differentiate yourself from Harley. There are other ways. It’s the job of designers. Retro & different is what Victory should do. I guess it was easier to go high tech. And I think they will fail. And because they will fail very fast, few units will be produced and it will make the Vision a collectible. Yes, we need an American Harley alternative, but not this. Was Arlen Ness involved in this bad design? Just curious.

  7. 7 Noodles Jan 23rd, 2007 at 11:04 pm

    On the Road,
    I think Arlen is a very skilled craftsman but I think alot of it is over the top and crosses into Gaudy. I’m glad I’m not alone

  8. 8 G-Man Jan 24th, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    Yeah, I think at first site it is a love/hate design. However, if you fall into the hate group, I think that the design does grow on you some. I own a Harley Ultra and a Victory Vegas; so, I was excited when I heard Victory was coming out with a dresser. I think Victory is at least trying to develop/advance motorcycles and design where I don’t think that Harley is doing it. It is hard for me to believe that HD is putting much money into motorcycle R&D when they make most of there money from accessories, not motorcycles. I like the Victory bikes and I think they give Harley’s a run for their money. The Vision has grown on me. I definitely want to go check one out and see it in person when they “hit the streets”.

  9. 9 Eric K. Olson Jan 24th, 2007 at 9:22 pm

    It’s for the tour guys, it won’t sell for the average biker but they might find it worthy.

  10. 10 C.C. Ryder Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:29 pm

    Victory has come out with some pretty trick designs recently. Man, one of the bike rags I get even had an ol’ V92 that was chopped down to look like a Confederate Hellcat! And it looked good! I admit to not being a bagger guy (I ride what I build, that being choppers for the most part), but I can still appreciate the functionality of a bagger. Cyril, I get the impression that we are basically seeing this the same way, but I have the luxury of not being an industry insider. C’mon, let’s call a spade a spade. This thing’s just fugly.

  11. 11 Antone Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:39 pm

    I still think the motor looks like a big air compressor that I seen at a hospital…

  12. 12 Robbie Jan 25th, 2007 at 8:19 am

    For me, it’s quite ugly. Probably a good bike to ride. But good looks are important too.

  13. 13 Jeff Jan 29th, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    I live in the Black Hills and have attended the Sturgis Rally for 25 years. I have seen about every bike configuration and have owned several brands, now I own a 2000 V92c Victory. I saw the Victory Vision and one week later I placed my order, Midnight Cherry, I cannot wait until delivery day! Victory rocks!

  14. 14 two travelers Kenny Jan 30th, 2007 at 12:30 pm

    At first sight I didn’t like it but I have taken pause. It takes guts to actually design a bike with some of the same technology used to build a modern car. You can’t hardly buy a car anymore with a carburetor or bias ply tires. Plus if you build a bike and put it in a wind tunnel for aero-dynamics you will probably be called a heretic. No, it’s about time motorcycles became modernized and efficient and when car manufacturers first started doing it, it took a while to be accepted. You have to remember us Harley guys are traditionalists and basically backwards when it comes to technology. There are Fords and then there are Cadillacs and It looks like Victory wants to be on the Cadillac end of the spectrum.

  15. 15 Barry Mac Feb 4th, 2007 at 11:53 am

    Victory Vision. One work fits! UUUGGGUULLLYYY!

  16. 16 vegas Feb 13th, 2007 at 9:50 pm

    i think alot of these guys that think the vison is ugly are the hardcore there is nothing but a harley guys.i think they are afraid to ride anything else because they might like it.i ride with alot of harley guys and all they do is complain about their bikes because they are always in the shop.and whats funny is they all want to ride my victory vegas!i think they oght to give the bike a better look,they might change their minds.

  17. 17 Mike Apr 3rd, 2007 at 9:24 pm

    I guess I’m in the minority here. I love the look of the bike. It is about time an American company is building a motorcycle that has all of the modern features intergrated into it instead of ill fitting after market bolt-ons. I have always owned Jap bikes for the lower cost and better technology. I am eager to drop $20K plus on a bike and have it ready to go, and not have to spend another $10K on up grading the brakes, radio, and other creature comforts that people who ride long distances like to have.

  18. 18 Dragon Rider Apr 5th, 2007 at 4:57 pm

    When I first saw this racehorse, I was shocked and speachless. I couldn’t decide what my feelings were and still have trouble. However, I like it enough to want to know more and I am frustrated by not being able to find things out like motor size etc. However, I have become obsessed about this and find it is growing on me almost daily. So, we wait, good or bad. Come onnnnnnn Victory, gives us the goods.

  19. 19 DJ Apr 18th, 2007 at 7:44 am

    I’m sure disappointed to read so many negative responses. I am a HD guy and always have been, UNTIL I test rode a 2007 Victory Hammer and realized that HD is already playing catch-up to the New Kid on the Block. I still love my HD but I am about to purchase that Hammer and am sure I will love it equally as much. I will admit the Vision is different but I like different and we need forward thinking designers/engineers to get us out of this motorcycle-gridlock we have been in for years. Our American-Made-Bikes (only one now that HD is not All American)can and will compete with the Europeans and I believe we just may surprise all that doubt. Ride one before you judge and you just might find that Victory has got a real good product hitting the pavement and I can’t wait to get mine. I feel the Vision will sell well not only here in the USA but wherever Victory decides to market it. Good luck Victory, you certainly have earned my respect.

  20. 20 Rick W Sep 14th, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    I love the bike..the Vision Street I do anyway…similiar to the HD Street Glide but better…but I have always said I wouldnt buy anything but a Harley but since Harleys dont hold any value just like the jap bikes I may as well buy something more affordable…BUT over 20K for a non Harley isnt pursuading me I can tell you that…if Im gonna spend 20 some thousand I might as well go buy the street glide for 17K

  21. 21 Joe C Sep 17th, 2007 at 11:08 pm

    I first saw this bike on the Victory site and thought, “what’s this spaceship looking, butt ugly thing!”. I saw it again the next day thinking “from the front and back it’s pretty nice”. 1 week later, I think I have to have one. I’m holding final judgement until I see one in person (by the end of the month) but will probably slap down a down payment when I see it. Technologically, it has everything I’ve been looking for in a bike and I’m starting to really like the look.

    I currently have an 03 Roadstar Limited Edition that has been a fine bike, and has taken me to all points between Maine and Colorado. After seeing the Vision, however, I have to get a closer look at one of the Cherry Vision Tours.

  22. 22 Pop Sep 18th, 2007 at 10:57 am

    It isn’t about the looks. Ironbutts have a different set of priorities.
    Yes, Victory is putting HD on notice to shake it up. But so did Honda and BMW and the rest. No reaction. It doesn’t fit the mindset. HD has made the bucks the investors wanted and now they will settle into a declining marketshare while Victory and others pick up the crumbs of the American market.
    I agree though. It is one horrendously ugly hunk of metal. The flipside is it is full of tricks like not falling over. You have to push it over. Like the adjustable height windshield, the additional gas tank, the list goes on. If I ride my evo 600 miles I’m toast, my Indian 500. This Victory will likely get a guy like me 7 or 800 miles and then still have the moxie to have dinner with friends.

  23. 23 Tralphaz Oct 1st, 2007 at 8:13 pm

    I’m waiting for delivery of the Midnight Cherry Vision Street, test rode a pre-production model and was thoroughly impressed, power wasn’t bad but will be even better with stage 1, handling was incredible, much more nimble than my Victory 8-Ball, wind control with the adjustable windshield was great. Overall impressed and looking forward to getting mine.

  24. 24 Tom W Oct 29th, 2007 at 5:48 am

    For all you guys who can’t stand the looks, wait until the first time you see one in a parking lot. You won’t believe the crowd it will draw. Every other bike on the lot will become invisible. Hard core posers will have a hard time coming to grips with the phenomenon.

  25. 25 Skip Nov 6th, 2007 at 1:28 am

    For what it’s worth, I rode a Vision at the Phoenix Cycle World motorcycle show and was totally blown away by this magnificent motorcycle. I own 22 motorcycles; KZ1000, XS1100, GS1100E, FJ1200, 2 750 Norton Combat’s, Kawasaki Concours’95, ’80FLH bagger, ’88 Yamaha Venture Royale, ’01 Sporty 1200 Custom, tricked-out SV650 Suzy, ’86 V-max, ’02 Triumph Bonny w/85HP, ’06 Buell Ulysses (GREAT BIKE), numerous dirt bikes, blah-blah-blah. The gadgets are over the top, very intuitive and ergonomically pleasing-can’t see why anyone would need any more. The perch is one of the most comfortable I’ve ever sat on (in). The looooong floorboards are sweet. This Sat. I traveled to Prescott Valley, AZ and Randy Coughlin there at Prescott Valley Motorcycles let me take out a Vision for an extended ride. I took it on one of my favorite roads, Arizona’s version of the "Dragon", 151 turns in 18 miles. There I was astounded by the competence of this bike. I swear it transitions as well as my up-graded "Conny" and feels lighter (honest). It leans as far as my Buell and never felt "upset". It smartly pulled away from a 103" Screamin’Eagle Electra Glide. I caught some sport-bike riders and hung with them for a while, (they were incredulous at the next stop). The most pleasing bike I’ve ever ridden. Finally the motivation to "sell" some bikes. Oh, by the way, don’t even consider purchasing this bike if you don’t like attention. Nothing I’ve ever owned draws as much attention as this (almost ALL negative from the HD bunch–ride it!–and nothing but ooh’s and aah’s from EVERYONE that see’s it. Great Motorcycle!

  26. 26 caughs Nov 6th, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    it funny to here all of the negative things on the vision and how they will not sell, well as a salesmen at a victory store that has pre-sold 14 visions and sold the other nie that we had on the floor i dont see any problem selling the other 17 that we have on order!!! so for all of the people who will ride a bike just for looks rather then function iam sure there are still plenty of HD dearlers out there with left overs for you!!!!

  27. 27 billy b Nov 22nd, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    I just saw the bike at a local Victory dealer…

    George Jetson would be proud…

    But I think it’s ugly for a bike in a 1957 Plymouth exagerrated fin sort of way (or maybe it’s the Edsel of bikes).

    I like metal bikes, not plastic. I like honest open bikes…a frame, motor, wheels..not swoopy plastic bodywork, gaudy lighting effects.

    Yep, I’m a Boomer. Started on BSA’s and Triumphs, moved to Japanese bikes, and now my last six bikes have been Harley’s. I do like the Victory Eightball, Jackpot, etc…but the Vision is for the few who delight in wearing a bow tie, wore white and pink or baby blue tuxedos to their prom, and would love the attention that wearing a clown suit brings.

  28. 28 paul Jan 1st, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    This past summer I was driving down 494 in Plymouth and saw a semi trailer unloading several Visions at the Radisson. The next day I decided to stop by the Radisson and see if they were still there.
    As it turns out they were. This was an event for the dealers around the country. I wish I could say they let me ride one, but this was their first ride. I can only dream.
    The only odd thing I noticed as they drove away was the sound or lack of….They were to quiet.
    As to if I like the styling, who cares I can’t afford one.

  29. 29 Genxer Feb 28th, 2008 at 1:29 pm

    I don’t think the Boomers would recognize the styling q’s because the boomers probably don’t know much about “Japanese Anime”. Perhaps “Go go speed racer” would seem appropriate, I’m just waiting for Chim-Chim to jump out of the tail trunk.

  30. 30 Nicker Feb 28th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    “…styling q’s …Japanese Anime…”

    Not too sure about that .
    Seems to have that Art Deco look.
    Arlen has done “Stream-liner” styling in the past.

    Just a thought.


  31. 31 Grampa Whistler Mar 31st, 2008 at 1:55 am

    I currently ride a K1200lt. It is about time to change bikes and life is all about experiences. While I zero inclination to HD because of what there owners tell me about constantly needing adjustment and repair. I have always thought it might be cool to have a Twin V.
    The styling of the vision for me was love at first sight. It seems the engineering and design are competitive to the imports. The innovations are what we should all expect from out heritage. The conservatives of today are guarding the innovations of yesterdays radicals. If I remember the 57, 58 and 59 Chevy’s were pretty radical for there time.
    I put my K bike up for sale and will probably end up with a vision before the weeks is out. I think it will be a successful design. I will ride it for 20 years and then carp and moan about the radical crap coming down the pike in 2028.

  32. 32 Bruce May 3rd, 2008 at 1:32 am

    Own 2000 Yamaha RoadStar, 2006 Stratoliner-S, and NOW the 2008 Victory Vision! This is without a doubt a love or hate motorcycle. I truly love it! The futuristic look gets looks from everyone! This is going to be a fantastic touring bike.

  33. 33 MKoontz Jun 4th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    Just saw and sat on one yesterday. Loved it.
    I would buy if I had the money. I’d buy it if I had half the money.

    I like the “street” but would want the electric sheild on it (too).


  34. 34 Mazman99 Jun 19th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    Let me put some perspective into light. I traded in my ’01 HD Ultra Classic for an ’07 Ultra. Worst mistake of my life. I fell out of love with Harley because of all the problems I had with it. They couldn’t get it to run correctly and get rid of the detonation. The quality and fitment was shoddy. My pipes were chromed without the slag from welding being removed. The end caps of the pipes were rusted. The header pipes were so blue from running the motor too lean you could easily notice it between the dress plates. My wife’s feet roasted whenever she rode. She quit riding. The rubber bumper piece on the rear fender was mounted crooked. Niether the dealer nor Harley took care of me on these problems. The final straw was the highway bars being mounted on the bike lopsided. In short, I no longer had that unconditional Harley love and they didn’t love me back.

    When I first saw the Victory Vision, I couldn’t get over the looks. Still, with what they were claiming on how comfortable it was, I had to try it. Afterall, about 100 to 150 miles of riding the Electra Glide had me wanting off to give my butt a rest.

    I went to the first public test ride at Elko Speedway last year. When climbing on It felt like I was on an aircraft carrier it was so long. The fact that I could stretch my legs out all the way was like being in a recliner. I am six feet tall and when I rode my Harley the next day, it felt like I had my knees in my elbows. The handling of the bike was phenomenal for the size of it both at low speed and in turns.

    Once I was home and riding the Harley again, I could not forget the Vision. I placed my order for a new Vision.with D & J Motorsports That was in July ’07 and the bike arrived in October. The first thing I wanted to do was go on my usual ride to Arkansas. Now I know the roads there like the back of my hand since I have been down there riding so much on the Harleys.

    When I came into the first roads that started the twisties, I thought I was coming in too fast and had that overwhelming sensation of impending dread. The Vision cut into the turn and settled in like nothing I have experienced since my 1983 Suzuki GS 750ESD (read: crotch rocket). I was able to readjust the line in the turn with ease. The whole set of turns was effortless compared to the Harley. It just seems like you are able to lean and keep leaning the bike without running out. God, that was fun! So all the turns and twisties were a new experience that allowed me to ride more miles through the day without coming back as tired as I was on the Glide. I could ride more miles. The Vision also has so much more power than my Harleys it still amazes me.

    The next day of riding had me going to the Victory dealer for the 500 mile oil change. When I left for the dealer that morning, the temp indicator on the bike read 52 degrees and it felt like it. I thought I was going to pull over and get my leather jacket on when I remembered that I had the seat and grip heaters. I turned those on and found that I didn’t need the jacket. While I could feel the cool air flowing over my arms, I was warm as toast.

    During the time I was riding in Arkansas it was the same time as the annual rally going on in Fayetteville; the Bikers, Blues, and Barbeque Rally. I stay away from poker runs and rallies. When I get out I want to be away from people. I found I spent a lot of the time while I was fueling talking to Harley riders with some invitations for me to ride with them. The only ones I seemed to get objections from were the hardcore, die-for-Harley types.

    The day I left for home was on a Sunday, the last day of the rally. I saw a lot of biker traffic on Highway 71 coming back home. As luck would have it, it started raining in Southern Missouri. I got the rain gear on and ended up having to travel in the left lane because of the slower biker traffic plying their way through the rain at a slower speed to the right. In the medium rain I did not get as wet on the Vision like I did on the Harley. On the Harley I had to look through the drops on my glasses to see. With the Vision I didn’t have as much of a problem with rain drops on my glasses so my vison wasn’t obscured. Everyone else in the right lane that had windshields were cowered behind them trying to see while I went past at 80 mph in comfort.

    Speaking of comfort, I went the farthest I ever have on a bike non-stop. I fueled up in Diamond, Missouri and made it to St Joseph. That translated to 250 miles with 30 more to go on the range indicator before I ran out of fuel. Fantastic!

    As far as maintenance, I change oil and don’t have to clean the mess off my volatge regulator and frame like I did on the Harleys. The filter is located in the back so it drains into the same pan as the crank oil. No gear box oil to change, no primary oil to change, no clutch to adjust, and no primary chain check/adjustment.

    With all of these factors I was able to get past the looks. I have come to admire the bike for what it does and what it isn’t. I am so satisfied that I have not looked back.

    So while I was slow to embrace the Victory on looks, and buy-in to the culture, the recent purchase of a Victory-branded helmet was evidence that I had moved past that point. I now admire the brand and the bike and I am in love all over again. Believe me , it is a good feeling to have regained.

    The Harley sales manager I know complained to that me Harley is trying to adapt an antique motor to meet modern day requirements and it doesn’t come without difficulty or compromises. While I still like Harley Davidsons, I no longer like Harley Davidson.

    Afterall, heritage is only so good until you have to eat it.

  35. 35 K.B. Jun 30th, 2008 at 8:17 am

    For those of you who do not like the Vic ision,thats o.k.The great thing about our country is the fact that we are all able to be as diverse and different as we want,within the law.
    I find it funny that people talk about the average biker not liking the bike.Most of he people who call themselves bikers are not really all that hard core.Most are just weekend warriors,so to speak.i said all that to say this,one who we can all agree is a hard corp biker is Sonny Barger of Hells Angles fame.He likes and own the Victory Vision and when I spoke with him a few weeks ago,he said that he wished this bike had been out years ago.Its the most comfortable bike he had ever ridden.He also said he would never ride anything else.
    For those of you who say the styling is to modern,I say go to the library and look at some art deco work from the late 40’s and early 50’s.You will see that the styling is quite retro.

  36. 36 rwilly Jan 1st, 2009 at 2:07 am

    I am the owner of 2 Shovelheads, and have owned many Jap bikes. The most comfortable bike I have ever ridden was a 1981 HD FLT until I rode the Vision. It is hands down the most comfortable bike I have ever been on. The bike is not an HD or a Honda or any other bike, it does not try to be anything other than what it is, a Victory Vision. I am extremely happy with it. Alot of people don’t like it which is fine by me. One of the reasons I am attracted to motorcycling so much is because not everyone does it, I like to do my own thing. There are still a few of us people who aren’t afraid to do their own thing, the others can ride what their “bros” tell them is cool.

  37. 37 John Mar 17th, 2009 at 4:44 am

    I love my vision… The more people hate on it, the more I love it…. Niche ” Beyond Good and Evil” is the ever evolving and improving truth. … It is so beyond ugly , I find I am in true love with it’s beauty.

  38. 38 Anime Girl Mar 21st, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    Hey, is there a section just for latest news

  39. 39 V - Man May 28th, 2009 at 6:54 pm

    I have been riding everything for the last 44 years and I will tell you nothing is out there that can compare with the Vision . I love mine and I know that the Harley guys will have to give it props , because it is a better bike .

  40. 40 MJ May 29th, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    I am sure that it rides well but I looked at the storage space and what a waste of plastic!!! Being a woman rider storage space means a lot if I’m to ride on a touring bike. Why not buy a hammer if you want that kind of power, you’ll have a better looking bike. Power and comfort and 70 years old buy a Gold wing. Want to be in a group of millions world wide? Go Harley!!
    Maybe I’m traditional and like the Harleys and the history that goes with the real American company. Victory hasn’t made it thru the hard times that HD has!! I can guarantee you that if Victory had to go thru the same battles that Harley did they would not be in existence today!!!
    I’d put my bike in the shop a million times over before I’d ever buy something that looks like that , I’d get a Goldwing first!!

  41. 41 Roscoe Nov 28th, 2010 at 11:15 am

    MJ, please do a little bit more research on HD before you spout off again. Get your facts straight. HD owes ALOT to alot of people, and they have never showed any signs of appreciation for what was given them.

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