Testing The New 2009 Indian Chief

The launching time of the new Indian Chief has been postponed several times. The reason? Indian Motorcycle chairman Stephen Julius explains that he didn’t want to buy an engine from a 3rd party, and no surprisingly it takes longer than anticipated. We all know that without a proprietary engine, the new Indian Motorcycle company would have no credibility. Indian Motorcycle is right now testing the 09 Chief prototype equipped with a new in house produced Powerplus engine with fuel injection (the last rendition of the PowerPlus was a 100ci, 1638 cc 45-degree V-Twin). Launching date is now set to be fall of 2008. It is clear that the company is not in a hurry to release new models without being certain to meet the high expectations of all Indian motorcycle fans. The released prototype picture shows that the company intends to keep the traditional look, skirted fenders, a studded comfortable seat, and the trademark headdress logo on the gas tank. I hear that many customizing options will be offered through a wide range of factory designed accessories like wheels, saddlebags, fenders, etc. A 1st flagship dealership is in construction near Charlotte, North Carolina and 50 dealers across the US are scheduled to be ready to sell the Indian Chief at the time of its launch. Each dealer will have the obligation to have an interior space devoted exclusively to selling and servicing the new Indian Chief. All technicians will be Indian factory certified. I can only applaud Indian Motorcycle for taking all the time necessary to do it right. Indian Motorcycle


134 Responses to “Testing The New 2009 Indian Chief”

  1. 1 Curt Hahn Dec 19th, 2007 at 10:27 am

    Let’s give them a last chance to do it right. It seems that they are very careful, a good sign. Cyril are you ging to test ride it?

  2. 2 James Amar Dec 19th, 2007 at 11:49 am

    Same body work, former engine in fuel injected version, what is exciting?

  3. 3 hoyt Dec 19th, 2007 at 12:47 pm

    If that motorcycle isn’t exciting to you, I don’t know what would be.

  4. 4 Gruber Dec 19th, 2007 at 1:26 pm

    I know that everybody is skeptical about Indian. This time I think it’s going to work. They will not sell many bikes but they will have and keep their own small marketing niche.

  5. 5 Pop Dec 19th, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    I own the ’03 Chief, last Gilroy model year.
    The frame hopefully will be essentially the same since it was an engineering milestone. There were a variety of horror stories that came out of Gilroy but the frame is not one of them.
    The KM engine is fundamentally the same heart as the Gilroy, a 100 inch bottlecap, but the manufacturing and engineering are being described as orders of magnitude better. Plus collaboration and input from some reputable Vtwin builders and four years of tech improvements industrywide can result in a visually similar but technically superior motor.
    I hope so. I performance built my engine in it’s second season and it needed it. The result was an engine that puts more than 100 horse out the rear wheel, so if KM really has reengineered the bottlecap then I expect it will deliver big numbers. Incedentally if you take a look at the 150 inch Viper you can’t miss the shared lineage between it and the PowerPlus.
    Some of us Indian owners have gotten used to false starts so excuse me while I don’t wave a flag. I still haven’t “seen” a bike. I saw pictures a year ago from the Concourse D’elegance where Indian and Moet did a dog and pony show with a banner. Again at the Indian Point Rally last May where the KM owners were present with another banner. I’m seeing pictures on the website and a picture here. Has anyone seen the machine? I would be tickled silly if somebody had actually seen the machine.
    I am waiting for the “Steve’s” to invite the motorcycle press to KM for a hands on.
    Until then, I wish them luck but all I’m certain of is that they have a concept and I have a motorcycle.

  6. 6 Knucklehead Dec 19th, 2007 at 3:39 pm

    The group that undertook Indian have been successful in the past at bringing back businesses like Indian. One of note was Christ Craft. Others also. Lets hope they still have it. I believe they can. This is what they like to do. Win. Good luck.

  7. 7 Bruce Dec 19th, 2007 at 8:43 pm

    I can be interested. But any idea about the price?

  8. 8 Doc Robinson Dec 20th, 2007 at 8:12 am

    If there are any serious potential buyers out there for an Indian, they should take a look at Kiwi Indian. Genuine management, here to stay and with a great range.

  9. 9 rodent Dec 20th, 2007 at 10:15 am

    Remember the Gilroy Indian,the Albuquerque Indian, Excelsior Henderson, Hudson, Nash, Studabaker,Oldsmobile,and the Silerado Savings& Loan? duh? Stop beating a dead horse…Let INDIAN rest in pieces.

  10. 10 Soulfur Dec 20th, 2007 at 12:14 pm

    Leave Excelsior out of this! I love my Super X!

  11. 11 Pop Dec 20th, 2007 at 1:04 pm

    Remember Harley Davidson which needed the American taxpayer to foot a government loan to save them from bancruptcy.

  12. 12 Gomez Dec 20th, 2007 at 3:15 pm

    As far as these guys being successful with Chris Craft…remember that Chris Craft had product in place and just needed new management to turn it around, Indian has no product in place. The 99-03 Indians were way too heavy and the PP motor was wraught with problems (rear head gaskets, weak flywheels). I just hope the “delays” are truly the management trying to bring a quality product to market, and not just taking everyone’s $1k deposit and making shirts with it.

  13. 13 Jimbob Dec 20th, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    For under 20K you can buy a real 1947 chief.
    They are not that hard to find if you bother to take the time to look.
    Indian: 1901 through 1953.
    End of story.

  14. 14 Doug Dec 20th, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    Gilroy was a farce. The bike was a Harley clone and they called it an Indian! If you know ANYTHING about Indian history you’d realize what blasphemy it was. It was a rivalry. Ford doesn’t use Chevy engines. Anyone who bought those bikes was a jackass. Yes YOU.
    Stellican looks to take over where Gilroy left off. I own 2 REAL Indians (37′, 48′). I hope I don’t have to pay 1 dime more for old parts or a T-shirt because of this new company. I swear I will take it out on any jerkoff who I see riding one.

  15. 15 Lyle Dec 20th, 2007 at 5:57 pm

    If Indian were to restart, it should be by someone who has direct lineage to the older bikes. And they should pick up where Indian left off with an 80″ flathead. Anything looking even remotely like the photo above is a phoney. I don’t put Audburn badges on my Ford and they shouldn’t put Indian on anything that isn’t. The name was kept alive by enthusiests and the company’s legacy back when they were still manufacturing bikes. Eveyone who has attempted to cash in on the name has pimped it with low quality pot metal, leaky gaskets, poor oil pumps, over emphansised styling, wrong side carburation, etc. As long as there are bikes pictured like the one above the name is ruined. I’ll stick to the old stuff and when I buy a new bike. It’ll be something that isn’t trying to copy something else. Probably a Harley with a good dealer network, available spare parts, and honest when they say “since 1903”.
    They should really research the original Indian company when they claim to be Americas first motorcycle. They weren’t.

  16. 16 Ken Dec 20th, 2007 at 6:02 pm

    Sorry folks. Still looks like a Harley clone to me. My big issue is that this company had already begun hassling the Vintage Indian parts supply stallwarlds who have kept the name alive, by allowing so many Real Indians (1901 – 1953) to stay on the road. This is pathetic and very inflammatory.
    I really can’t wish them luck with this type of behaviour. I don’t agree with Doug that owners of ‘Undians” are jackasses, but they would have, and I’m sure will be, better served by spending their money on a Real Indian or a real Harley. Look at the price of 2nd hand Undians now.
    Buyers beware!

    Best wishes.


  17. 17 Pop Dec 20th, 2007 at 6:59 pm

    Wow, where to start. I won’t even waste much of everyone’s time hammering posters that throw empty internet threats. Talk is cheap. Suffice to say that I like to ride at freeway speeds and on a machine that has the suspension and handling and power that lets me roll off 500 miles to get to a destination and still be in shape to enjoy myself when I get there. I have had my flatties to run around to Sunday AMC events, I have a Gilroy Chief because I like it, it is a fistful and if it bothers some of these self possessed Springfield “purists’, BONUS!
    To correct a few more intelligently phrased misconceptions, the PowerPlus is a left side intake engine which is faithful.
    It’s a Vtwin and in that regard is of the same ilk as a Harley, but there are significant differences and regardless of the want to dismiss it as a clone, it is not. Different engine, different frame, different sheetmetal. I guess the tires are about the same so you got me there.
    As far as flatties go, staying with flatties is part of what killed the Springfield factory in the first place. While Harley was touting a OHV pan Springfield was trying to sell a punched out prewar flattie as “New”.
    Gilroy was a mess and they came to an end for it. Good riddance. Springfield was a mess and they came to an end for it too. Good riddance. What they left was, at least to us owners, a flawed but drop dead gorgeous ride. It looks like KM intends to keep the style of the style but claim to have cleaned out the faulty engineering and QC that plagued the Giroy models.
    I guess if your notion of riding is gin mill to gin mill or Starbucks to Starbucks then a Springfield Indian is as good, or better a choice than many. But if you want to actually click off big miles without a saddlebag full of parts that you are too scared to leave without, then a Springfield model isn’t the best choice any more than a VL is the best choice.

  18. 18 Gomez Dec 20th, 2007 at 7:15 pm

    Well now, Doug seems to take it a bit personal, but I do agree the new(er) Indians don’t deserve the name, however I have nothing against those who ride them…that is their choice. I drive a 1966 Austin Mini Cooper and I do not hate or put down those who have bought BMW’s version of the Cooper, and I may even buy one someday. I will never trade mine in, nor would I trade my 38 Chief for a new one. Now if they would have designed a new bike more in the lines of James Parker’s Eller project Indian, then I think they would have had a shot at respectabiliy. Now the new company is calling on the vintage parts dealers demanding 10% of their gross sales for the right to sell them. Not even HD gets that much….again showing that the bottom line is all they are concerned about. They have even had e-bay pull listings of ‘Real’ vintage parts. Not the best of PR moves by Corporate professionals!
    Now if it would stop raining, I’m going riding!

  19. 19 Brett Dec 20th, 2007 at 7:34 pm

    I just wonder if Indian has missed it’s chance? The fad is over. With all motorcycle manufacturers having lower sales, it may be too late for Indian to make a come back. The rich have found new toys to play with that won’t splatter their brains on the highway.

  20. 20 Lyle Dec 20th, 2007 at 7:51 pm

    Ok you got me there. It is a left side intake. But my point is, it’s a development from a Harley and not the original. When I ride at freeway speeds I’ll either take my real Chief or an old shovelhead for which 500 miles is an easy distance. I don’t wish them any ill will but I have super mixed feelings about them and don’t like the styling a bit. The flatties didn’t kill Indian, it was management and shady dealings by Brockhouse who just wanted the name for their distributor network. If they needed to improve anything about the last 80″ chiefs it should have been the transmission. The engine was bulletproof. Even Harley manufactured flatheads into the 70’s. The new “powerplus” is a single cam, seperate construction, OHV unlike Indian’s twin cam, semi-unit, flattie. Now I’ll admit, running a flattie with todays EPA requirements would be unpractical, but my point is, they should have taken engineering and design queues from the original, not a copy of a Harley. It’s a real slap in the face to a purest. No wonder people like Doug feel the way they do. And if Gomez is right about the factory (wait, they aren’t a factory until they start manufacturing)demanding 10% off vintage parts sales, I’ll feel the same way he does. Those vendors have been keeping the name alive for the past 50 years. Some of those guys stock enough parts to build “clone” Indians which to me, are more Indian than the new ones. With me the jury’s still out but I’m highly skeptical….

  21. 21 Pop Dec 20th, 2007 at 8:43 pm

    Just for the record, I don’t buy the hype coming out of KM. Matter of fact, the lot of a Gilroy owner is much closer to a Springfield owner than to KM. I have met and listened to the “vision” of KM and my bike is not in their vision any more than a Hendee was in the Gilroy vision.

    Now, as far as this 10% thing, I don’t know of it, but I do know this. Mike at Kiwi (are you lurking Mike?) has an agreement with KM to use the Indian name based on some chronological tripwire that nobody has illuminated for me. That agreement has been in place for awhile. I think that it was an amicable agreement but like I say I know no details.

    I think KM inherited the agreement between Gilroy and Kawasaki for use of the fender style on the Drifter but I don’t know that that agreement is still in place. Moot point probably since they Kow killed the Drifters.

    I don’t know that KM will survive and because they saved other marques doesn’t mean they will save this one. But Crocker, Viper, Indian, Confederate, Boss Hoss, Ridley, anybody that makes a unique and styling product deserves a shot.

    I respect what another man rides and in this country it’s his choice. I have a few but the Chief is my first choice just about all the time. I see the direct lineage just about every time I pull into a gas stop and some 80 year old cat turns his Oldsmobile around and comes back just to ogle those fenders and tell me tales from his wild days. Never got near that much attention on my Springfield, never on my VD or my knucks or any of the other vintage iron I’ve sweated back to stock and certainly not on any evo I owned.

    If the Steves in KM are crimping the style of Springfield vendors then I guess I would say that it’s up to those vendors to get a deal that works for them. The marque went to the Steves for way less than the money they want their dealers to pony up for a franchise. It was out there for sale for awhile. If a smart operator in the vintage parts arena had been on his game he might have owned that marque now and he could be making the rules but nobody bit and now that these guys have it’s a little late to cry that they are playing hardball, if indeed that’s what they Are doing.

  22. 22 Lyle Dec 20th, 2007 at 9:28 pm

    But what you don’t realize is that many of these vendors relay on small cottage industry people for many of their parts, one guy making cast brass breathers, another guy making sheetmetal parts, another stamping leather seats, etc. Not too many of them are interested in buying a brand name when most are in it for the love of the machine rather than the money. I don’t know one person getting rich enough off manufacturing original Indian parts (or I should say parts for originals) to buy a factory. Some of these guys have been doing this for decades and only do it for the love of it and the niche market. Nobody is going to make any livable income from selling Indian crankcases, heads, shiftknobs, decals, etc. At least Ford is smart enough to leave alone the guys that a repoing 32 Ford Hot rod stuff in smaller qtys. They recognise those folks add to the mistique of the marque. Or, at least I heard they were leaving them alone.

  23. 23 Gomez Dec 20th, 2007 at 9:57 pm

    I agree Pop, that if I had to ride 500 miles, my 38 would not be my first choice (my BMW would be)…that said, I did ride the 38 from California to Springfield, MA in 2001 with the Century Ride Home that the guys (Kiwi) in California set up. 4200 miles and I had NO mishaps, and felt fresh everyday (yes, the longest day was ONLY 420 miles, but they had us on all the back roads). We did have some break downs, we did some on the road repairs on the old iron (try that on a modern bike), but two of the GI Indians broke down too, and one of them never got out of California!! To paraphrase the military: Ride em if ya got em! All riders are okay with me, just don’t like the way the KM guys are doing business…so far.

  24. 24 Pop Dec 20th, 2007 at 10:04 pm

    I do know what you’re saying Lyle, but at the end of the day it’s a free market economy and the guys who survive are going to be taking advantage of opportunities. It’s noble to do it for the love of it but if you love it and want to keep doing it you learn to swim in the pond.

    The Indian marque sold for a price that could have been afforded by a guy with a good business plan, decent credit and a couple hundred grand for a down payment. This is business.

    By the way I checked EBay, 1700 olus listings for Indian motorcycle stuff, 35 pages. I’m not spending my night rifling through them but I took a look at the first four or five pages and lo and beHold, more vintage parts than Gilroy parts, and mountains of vintage junk like shirts and pins and other repop fashion accessories.

    I don’t know where this 10% thing comes from but I’m going to talk it around to folks I know that are vendors on the antique side and get their input because if EBay is the argument, the argument just doesn’t hold water.

  25. 25 Pop Dec 20th, 2007 at 10:18 pm

    Hey Gomez, that sure was a ride.
    This country has been traversed over and over by old iron and a 60 year old machine can still do it if it’s respected.

    I love the old iron and have run my share too but I just don’t sanction that Springfield martyr thing. I got as much respect for a kid tryin to get one of those rickety rebadged dirtbikes running as I do a guy with a 841 or that goofy Moto Guzzi lookin beast.

    To me it’s all the continuing history just different chapters. My registration says 2003 Indian Chief on it and that makes it legal to run so I’m as validated as I need.

    If you want to talk to a guy who really has an axe to grind with KM google Crazyhorse Motorcycles and give Johny White a call. Now there’s a man who has ample reason to hammer on the Steves. A whole other chapter in the history.

  26. 26 Lyle Dec 20th, 2007 at 11:33 pm

    Gomez, you got a 38 too eh?
    There is something to the 10% deal as I know one guy who had his ebay auction yanked and he sent me a copy of the letter they sent him. I also have on fairly good authority that they sent a similar letter to another parts supplier. I can’t comment on the 1700 listings as I only had one or two of them which weren’t yanked. So who knows? I’ll be watching them. I get a little riled by out and out lies such as America’s first motorcycle, inventor of the V-twin, etc.

  27. 27 Kiwi Mike Tomas Dec 21st, 2007 at 1:07 am

    I started my love afair with Indians just after I left school having restored a military Scout. After travelling to various places around the world I ended up in SoCal and started my business Kiwi Indian MotorCycles in 1988. My 1st 4 wheel vehicle was bought at age 28 and it was only used once a week. My main and only means of motorcycling was and still is classic Indians. To this day my latest model ride is a 1953 Chief. My regular rider is a 1948 Chief with one of my own Kiwi 84″er’s in it and in my Kiwi 88″ bobber. But I still ride my originals, 50 Chief with a sidecar, 53, Chief, 38 Chief, etc regularly. All my Indians are extremely reliable weather they be Kiwi powered or originals. Reliability has more to do with the riders maintenance practices and quality of parts used than anything. I’ve done several 100,000 miles on my vintage Indians and never been left stranded. My longest days ride was 725 miles from Alpine TX to Hollbrook AZ all on secondary roads with 1 mile of freeway. I was in no way beat up and arrived in better shape than my mate on his modern bike. In fact most of the time I end up riding by myself because no one can keep up mile after mile and day after day. I like to ride and not stop and I don’t care for any radios or fang dangle stuff. My longest trip was 6500 miles with temps up to almost 130 deg. My durability testing is done in Death Valley with the machine fairing better than the rider.
    When I developed my new engine there were skeptics so I built it 4 cubic inches bigger (84ci, bobber 8ci to 88ci) than the originals to prove my product was good. I put it to the test on the Century Ride Home (Indians 100th anniversary organized by Kiwi Indian) to prove its durability in front of the world to see 1st hand.
    I built Trevelens Biker Build off bike and it travelled fom Utah into Mexico along with my Kiwi Bobber, both without any mechanical problems what so ever. Paul and Keino from Indian Larry can atest to its durability and everyone else including Hugh King was thoroughly impressed.
    I’ve helped many a motorcycle rider on the road, some Gilroys, some Harley’s, some vintage riders and we dyno and work on all brands of bikes in our shop. I like all bikes and I like all riders. I do firmly believe that a rider deveolps the best products and gets to know his products and market the best, as for me, all my engineering is done from behind a set of handlebars with the countryside flying by.
    I like it all and it’s all good. I enjoy my Indians still the best. I have a saying “turn a ride into an adventure, ride an Indian”. Let’s have fun and let’s ride.
    Like old Kiwi Bert would say, you can live a lifetime in 5 minutes flat out on an Indian than in a lifetime.
    Mike Kiwi Tomas
    Kiwi Indian MotorCycle Co

  28. 28 Greg Dec 21st, 2007 at 1:23 am

    The new Indian looks great.
    I wish them success, and here’s hoping they leave the manufacturers who have been supporting the original Indians ALONE in regards to names and trademarks, etc.
    If it fits an original Indian… it’s all good, and no new company has the right to bully those that have been around for decades keeping the old beauties going !!

  29. 29 Kiwi Mike Tomas Dec 21st, 2007 at 1:27 am

    I’d also like to take the opportunity to point out the misconception of classic Indians being unreliable. Doug Wolthke recently travelled around the world on his 1948 Chief which few would even attempt on a new dual purpose bike. I was his on call mechanic and other than him calling or emailing from various parts of the world to say how his trip was going, he and his machine did exceptionally well.
    It would be a challenge to put a modern bike through the same paces as where he took his 1948. If anybody would like to do any durability testing or test their riding abilities we go off roading for several days in Death Valley every Oct. Come and join in.
    Mike Kiwi Tomas

  30. 30 Rob Dec 21st, 2007 at 1:46 am

    I don’t have anything against the new company or its bikes. I’m just not interested in another nothing-really-different v-twin wearing nothing-really-different styling. How about an upgraded in-line 4 or 841 or XA or … I have to admit to owning “first generation” Indians but I’d like to own a new bike to use on road trips. Show me something I can get excited about.

  31. 31 Bob Dec 21st, 2007 at 11:45 am

    I don’t think the new “Indian” looks quite right, the back fender sits too high over the rear wheel. Reborn Indians seemingly have a curse on them, the Brit. versions, Taiwan, Italy, Gilroy, the Dakota 4, the various and sundry US versions with varying levels of credibility and legal rights. Now yet another group steps in. Who knows if they’ll make it? Deep pockets help.

    My main thing is I hope they leave the old stuff alone. That includes the folks like Kiwi Mike that help us keep on going. As far as reliabilty goes, My ’39 Sport Scout has traveled many a mile, and the only time I broke down was a frayed original taillight wire that was my fault. 5 minutes later and on the road again. Cruiser type riders don’t like riding with me because they feel it is straining their modern bike. It isn’t, but it might be straining them…old Indians are comfortable in a way few new bikes are.

    Did I hear their rights are US only? I think that is pretty common in these cases.

    11 real Indians and an 800 Drifter

  32. 32 injunwiz Dec 21st, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    I have firsthand experience with the NEW Indian Company. They had Ebay cancel my item for sale for a Trademark violation. Here’s an example… You buy an Indian Script aircleaner assy from Kiwi, Starklite, etc. and decide you don’t need it. List it on Ebay and it’s not “offically licensed” so your auction is cancelled. Realize this fits Linkert carb only and has been reproduced for the Springfield Indians for 20 years! Seems to me to p!ss off alot of the people who have had thier Indians for years. The restoration market thrives because of mom/pop shops who care about keeping Indians on the road and can’t afford to pay a license fee and/or 10% of sales to a company who isn’t even making a bike yet and can’t tell you what it will cost if and when they do. Deep pockets might let them produce a motorcycle, but if they forget where Indian came from (and the people who supported them all these years) they will end up with a product only the ignorant will want. Be prideful and show some respect for your forefathers! One would think they would like to have the support of the “Old” Indian riders… OR it will be just Doctors and Lawyers on Indian Chiefs.

  33. 33 Seymour Dec 21st, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    I agree with everyone who is not particularly pro-KM. They are trying to keep alive the Gilroy Indians, not the originals. They need to build something that deserves the name, a bike that can stand on its own without even needing the name. The Kawasaki Drifter is what Indians should be today.

    OK, OK, if KM made a sweet inline 4, I’d be tempted. Still, I wish Eller had won it back in the 90’s…sigh…

  34. 34 Doug Dec 22nd, 2007 at 6:08 pm

    When the trademark was contested, before Gilroy won it, Eller Industries created a prototype engine from scratch. CMC took an S&S motor off the shelf, put it in a softail frame and called it Indian. Kind of scummy and an insult to Indian history.
    The old laughing Indian logo was something riders used to sew on their asses so they could moon harley riders when they rode past them. “If I had a Harley I leave it for a thief and with the Insurance buy an Indian Chief.” Why did they paint the old Harleys green? So they could hide them in the bushes when the Indians rode by. Just a few examples of the rivalry between Indian/Harley.
    Sorry Pop but when you ride your Gilroy bike you are like a girl that comes out the bathroom with her skirt tucked in her underwear. Sure everyone looks but people who know are laughing at you.
    I know you don’t care what I think and neither does the new company – they won’t sell me any bikes. If that’s so stop using the decals, badges, skirts that we helped keep on the road. Stop bastardizing our proud old heritage.

  35. 35 Nicker Dec 24th, 2007 at 12:31 am

    Are any of the Sprinfield, Gillroy, or KM motor efforts involved with Tim Buche’s Motorcycle Industry Council’s (MIC) “American V-Twin Committee”….?

    Just curios about the following press releases referenced on their (MIC) web site:

    > MIC American V-Twin Committee Addresses The Urgent Need For An EPA Engine Certification Program

    > MIC Board of Directors Unanimously Approves Formation of American V-Twin Committee

    > American V-Twin Committee Introduced at Open Forum in Cincinnati

    > The MIC American V-Twin Committee Meets to Act on Emissions, Noise and Other Issues Facing this Segment

    > Five Members Added to MIC American V-Twin Committee

    For instance:
    – Who’s on the board?
    – How’d they get there?
    – What’s their charter say?
    – and by who’s authority?

    Motorcycle Industry Council
    Tel: 949-727-4211 ext. 3045
    Fax: 949-727-3313
    2 Jenner Street, Suite 150
    Irvine, CA 92618-3806

    Just real curious about Tim Buche and his level of influence over motorcycling…….????

    My wallet is staring to twitch, not a good sign.


  36. 36 lenny Dec 25th, 2007 at 9:40 pm

    the only person and company that deserves the indian name is the man with the indian mike thomas at kiwi indian.

  37. 37 Erierugby4 Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:28 am

    are you bikers or babies. i own a 2002 indian chief and i am more than proud to ride it. be glad that someone, whoever he may be, is trying to revive an icon like indian. yes, it’s a business and people want to make money, that’s what capitalism and the American dream are all about. if you’re upset you can’t afford one then buy a suzuki or a kawasaki. very nice, reliable bikes that will cost you 1/3 the price of an indian. these bikes will also get you from point a to point b with the ability to style it any way you want. there is a brotherhood to biking that allows many to be one. if there are people out there that feel thay are better than others because they own an “original 37′ or 48′” indian and cannot appreciate the new indian all i can say is if you want to take it out on me you’d better hope it kills me.

  38. 38 Doug Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:54 pm

    Biking is divided into segments. Specific magazines, clothing, meet-ups, etc. I don’t see Road King riders buddying up to Hayabusa guys. Gilroy and Stellican are selling bikes with a name/symbols that us antique guys kept alive or painstakingly resurrected. You are hitching your wagon to our heritage. We don’t want pretenders around. At the 100th anniversary in Springfield Massachusetts Harleys and Gilroys weren’t allowed in the museum parking lot. I know a prominent bike book author who refused to curate the AMA museum Indian anniversary show only for inclusion of a Gilroy bike.
    Erie it probably will kill you. I’ve played rugby against your team and it sucks too.

  39. 39 Timo Jan 2nd, 2008 at 4:10 pm

    Good on you Erierugby4!!

  40. 40 Jay Jan 3rd, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    I read through this post… and have come to this conclusion. By the way, I have a 00’Chief and 01’Scout, I also have a 05’Honda VTX. What got me, was the post that Docs and lawyers will buy the ‘new’ Indian. Let me tell ya’ most of the guys I know that can afford Harleys, are Docs/lawyers and software guys. Gone are the days of the ‘true’ harley rider. What Harley was, and is now, are not the same… Harley has become what it was all against and only the image survived, not the life. Sure, my Indian prob spends more time on the lift than on the road, but wasnt that the idea all long? Wasnt the idea to have a bike that would require wrenching to keep’er running? and maybe even some duct’tape here and there? I knew what I was getting into when I bought the Indians, and to this day, I don’t regret my decision one bit.
    I bought my bikes for the same reason someone bought a Harley back in the 70s… to be different and to go against the grain… no matter what the cost.

  41. 41 Gomez Jan 3rd, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    All good points, but no Jay, I didn’t build my ’38 to consistantly wrench on her. I built her to ride (admittedly, not everyday), and ride hard. I think the vintage argument in more to the fact that the Steves have done nothing to legitimize their claim to the Indian name other than bring out the same-o crap that Gilroy produced. My local v-twin shop LUVS those Gilroy bikes, because it keeps his doors open. Blown rear head gaskets every 4,000 miles, bad flywheels, etc. The quality of the build is an embarrasment to the name INDIAN….yeah, I know there some nice Gilroy bikes out there that haven’t had a nickels worth of problems…but that’s the excepting, not the rule. When (and if) Stellicant builds an all new designed Indian, not a softail clone, maybe they can earn a feather….until then I will ride my ’38, new Buell or ZX10R. Do new Indian riders belong to the Brotherhood of bikers, yes….brotherhood of Springfield Indian riders….uh no.

  42. 42 Jay Jan 3rd, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    I understand your point Gomez, but I think “consistantly wrench on her” is an over-statement to say the least.
    The bottom line is that, most Springfield riders do think of the ‘new’ Indian as a Harley clone. Gilroy, did SNAFU the QA/RD of their bikes, but none the less, it was an attempt to bring back an iconic brand with $$$$ to be made…. You cant be in ANY business if you dont plan on making money. So, yes… the Steve’s are in it for the money and so was Hendee/Hedstrom.

    As per problems: The Gilroy bikes were only on the market for a few years, in which one would expect production problems… it took harley 70 plus years to get things right… and it was problems with quality and poor management that drove the Springfield company into the dirt.
    Harley Clone: Sure the early S&S Chiefs may have been similar, but wasnt the Vtwin created by Springfiled? so would it be fair to state that ‘all’ cycles that use Vtwins and double frames, Indian clones?
    Vintage: What claim? why would you need to have ‘a claim’? the only ‘claim’ you would need is claim to own the name… Sorry, Gomez but we all know that the Gilroy/KM/Kiwi Indians are NOT Springfield Indian and will never be.

    I dont think ‘new’ Indian riders want to be in the ‘Springfield brotherhood’ or any biking ‘brotherhood’ for that matter. At least speaking for myself, I dont care as long as I’m riding. However, I do find interesting your ‘point of view’ on the new-Indians. Granted you do have a passion for the Springfields, and distaste for the ‘new’. I truly appreciate the Springfield bikes and always will…

  43. 43 Steve Jan 3rd, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    Hey Gomez, thanks for letting everyone know that you know nothing about the subject.

    The new Indian was never going to be a softail clone. It’s not a softail.

    And if your local V-twin shops can’t work on an Gilroy built Indian and keep it from being back for the same problem every few miles I would not take any bike to them. They are parts swappers not mechanics.

  44. 44 Pop Jan 3rd, 2008 at 2:53 pm

    Like I say, if what I ride ticks off somebody well BONUS. I did my time on the side of the road, wrenching my own rattletraps back together or wrenching somebody else’s.
    I picked up a couple tricks and a bunch of memories and a hard lesson for a Harley guy to learn.I learned that some real bikers ride rice, and yep Huyabusas too. If I was thirty years closer to young then you can bet that I would be tearin it up on Busa and giving it space alongside my American Iron. I might not have been a whiny puke about how the only thing worth riding is Harley for too much of my life.
    The other leg of that lesson is that I finally got to where I see that there are plenty of guys who talk the talk but at the end of the day they just can’t get the walk down. This brotherhood starts where the rubber hits the road. You get just as high at 80 on a Wing as you do at 80 on a Ultra, or a military Scout or a Gilroy Scout or a Busa. The ground is just as hard. That old gumper with the safety vest, full face helmet and the Interstate that you shake your head at, he’s grinning ear to ear in there. If you don’t like it, who’s not smiling, you or him?
    It’s about the ride not about what you ride. My days of riding something so I can identify with some splinter subset of the tiny fraction of peeps that are riders in this world, that’s long gone.

    My hat is off to all of you and I’ll stop to help every mothers son and you bet I wave and I’ll jaw about scooters til sun up as long as good cigars are included. If what I ride is such a misery for you to deal with, maybe it’s time to for a little sanity check. Maybe it isn’t the other riders that are the fly in your ointment. If you get pissed off when you see somebody roll by with their knees in the breeze and you remind yourself how much you hate that guy for riding what he’s riding, all Pop can say is I sure envy you the time you have on your hands. I just plain don’t have the time any more to make other riders machines a personal misery. If you want to ride, I’m in. You want to look over the end of your nose counting which bikes are “your kind” you are still welcome to ride with me but let’s keep the conversation to a minimum. I live this life for myself.

  45. 45 Jay Jan 3rd, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Pop…. at the end of the day, with all said and done. You are right.

  46. 46 Gomez Jan 3rd, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    Pop and Jay….I say if you got ’em ride em, and I too wave at all m/c I see on the road, silly as I look sometimes, I don’t give a rat’s ass what you ride, I will always stop to give an assist if needed….Steve, call it what you will…it’s still a clone bike and not a ground up ‘new’ bike. Just parts off the shelf. My beef is not with the buyers and riders of the bikes, it’s the mfg. Yes I have a passion for the vintage iron (and no, Springfield didn’t invent the v-twin, but both HD & Indian improved on them), and when CMC first announced bringing back the brand I was hoping for the best and I wish the Steve’s would bring in people who have the passion to build a NEW motorcycle, not a re-issue of the same CMC bike. Let’s hope they build something fresh, not slap a decal on something stale….Up the list Lenny mentioned that a company called Kiwi building a real Indian…and I just saw it in the lastest “chopper” mag and it does look like my 38, though a bit more hot rodded. At least it’s got the right look IMHO

  47. 47 Steve Jan 3rd, 2008 at 9:10 pm

    And Kiwi is VERY PROUD of their bikes. Have you seen the price tag? Starting at $60,000!!!! You go ahead and buy a couple.

    Gomez, you need to learn a subject before you debate it.
    Let us start with one part, a very important part, the frame. Show me the shelf it was pulled off of.

  48. 48 04CHIEF Jan 3rd, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    Pop is 100% right…It doesn’t matter what you ride. I’ll ride my Indians with anyone. Don’t matter to me. I’m just proud of what I ride or I wouldn’t be riding it. I give Stellican a lot of credit. They stepped up to the plate and made a huge investment and committment in keeping the name going. I’m sure they have done a lot of research and have a business plan in place and understand what it takes to manufacture a superior product that will be successful long past our lifetime. I hope they succeed…
    I give Mike at Kiwi a lot of credit for making a personal committment to himself and all 01 to 53 Indian owners. If it wasn’t for him you would probably see a large pile of rusted junk sitting in a field somewhere. Even though I don’t own one of the origionals, I still love to see them and talk about them.
    I give the origional owners of the Gilroy Indian’s a lot of credit for trying. No one plans for failure. They were on the right track but just didn’t make it. (for whatever reason). I’m sure in their hearts and souls they were doing the right thing when they started out and they had the same goals and dreams as the origional Indian motorcycle company and as Stellican has now.
    I have stopped along the road and helped people on Harleys and other brands that were broke down as I hope some will help me the day I may break down. I love my 03 and 04 Chief’s. In my heart there is nothing nicer. But guess what, they are no better or worse than the origional Indians or the new ones comming in 09!!!
    Ride what you like and ride safely…

  49. 49 Erierugby4 Jan 3rd, 2008 at 11:05 pm

    are all bikes made after 1901 “pretenders”? know what you’re talking about before you put anything in writing. i can honestly tell you that when i was sitting on the side of the road, believe it or not, a guy on a ninja pulled up to see if i needed anything. i had to tell him the other guy i was riding with, a harley owner, went to get the parts i needed. we shook hands and he went on his way. something i would do for any other biker, scooter rider, and yes probably even you. know and understand that you are not some bad-ass drug-running chick-porkin’ biker of ol’but probably some social studies teacher at the local middle school. obviously, by your comment, you have also never played rugby or have been apart of something that matters. i even question whether or not you even own a bike. if i am wrong i someday hope to cross paths with you, either on the pitch or on the road. whatever it may be pray your guardian angel is with you.

  50. 50 Nicker Jan 4th, 2008 at 1:48 am

    Seems to me the Springfield -vs- Gilroy contention isn’t so much about the product as it is about which one is the “Real Deal.”

    Basically, if either one gets ya down the road without a bunch of grief, its a “functional dead heat,” as i see it anyway.

    The politics of who owns the Indian name aside, looks to me like what we have here the equivalent of “who’s the real Biker.”

    Buying stuff and hanging with those who also have that stuff doesn’t make anyone a “biker.” Nor does inking up your hide or acting like a fool.
    Ya can’t “buy biker” or “play biker.”

    So, Springfield, Gilroy, whatever Indian….
    The way i see it;
    If you’re making Indians, improving your product, supporting your customers, and dealing with the competition squarely, i figure it’s a push.

    If your an owner, as long as you ride the wheels off it, fix it when it don’t run, and don’t snivel, then you’re satisfied with the purchase you made. Which, in the final analysis is all you can hope for.

    Pop’s got it down:
    “…time on the side of the road, wrenching my own rattletraps back together or wrenching somebody else’s…
    picked up a couple tricks and a bunch of memories and a hard lessons…”

    That’s called “paying your dues” and there are no check-book-financed shortcuts.

    I do know real bikers. They’ve paid their dues.
    Pop’s right, i too love-ta “…jaw with [real bikers] about scooters…,” memories, and hard lessons learned. Noobys are always welcome. They typically keep their yap shut and their ears open and may even learn something that will save their hide. Checkbook-empowered Posers are easily spotted and typically ignored.

    As far as manufacturers go, someone more qualified than me is gonna have to figure out which “Indian” (may be both?) has paid their dues(or which is a Nooby or a Poser).

    Frankly, brand identification is largely irrelevant. i don’t give a rosey rat’s ass what ya ride. That’s your deal. Moreover, i’m not particularly interested in your opinion of what i ride.

    And if that perspective “…pisses some one off…” once again, as Pop says, “BONUS”……… 🙂


  51. 51 KC Cheef Jan 4th, 2008 at 2:59 am

    Interesting thread going here.
    So much emotion, and so many points of view.
    I cheer for one side –then cheer for the other.
    I agree with the one side–then agree with the other.
    Yep–I ride a Gilroy–pretty much the twin to Pops bike–Done some serious miles on it POST REBUILD–it was a major screw up stock out of the factory–like Pop I found the right builder (in fact the same builder Pop used) and now I just ride the damn thing–A LOT!!!

    Pretty much I’d love to own a Springfield to go with my Gilroy.
    Pretty much I agree that there is no link from my bike to the old ones. (Except Lawyers and money f—–g things up and confusing everything like they always manage to do.)
    Pretty much it doesn’t matter to me what ANYONES opinion of what I decide to ride might be–if I want I’ll ride it–and I’ll ride it anywhere I want.

    The Steve don’t concern me a whole lot–I’m gonna have to see them actually do something with what they managed to salvage out of California.
    And from what I see — all they managed to come away with is a right to the name (maybe) and a lot of bad karma.
    Bone pickers with no passion.
    We’ve seen a lot of promises from them in the past few years–but so far nothing even close to a damn motorcycle has popped up anywhere.
    Lets see–get ready to ride in 2005–2006-2007–2008-now possibly-probably 2009.
    Send in your $1000 deposit to be first in line. (Someday–maybe–eventually)
    New clothing line coming down the pike, and looks to be a new dealership–or show room — or something being built in Kings Mountain.
    I can’t damn wait to see SOMETHING happen in the Indian world.

    I’m thinking it will be the final sad chapter shortly for Indian Motorcycle–the Steves just don’t seem to understand or cherish what they bought.

    I kind of really turned sour on them when they introduced that Moet Chmpagne Chief out in California.
    Just something not right about associating the Indian name with THE FABULOUS LIFE, and champagne chillers on motorcycles.

    I’m gonna keep an eye on this thread–it’s kind of cool to see people expressing themselves in an open forum where the cards aren’t stacked against one side.

    Hey Kiwi Mike–you and your KIWI INDIANS are about as close as anyones come in over 50 years to doing it right–good on ya.

  52. 52 Doug Jan 4th, 2008 at 11:06 am

    Please save the brotherhood of biker tolerance smoke for blowing up someone else’s ass. I have a Yamaha sportbike. I have AAA for when I break down.
    Rationalize all you like but antique Indians are like religion and Gilroy and the new company blaspheme. It dawned on me that if you have a Garlic Indian you probably never owned a 1901-1953 and “wouldn’t understand.” If you owned an antique Indian or knew Springfield history you would be revolted.
    Okay I’ll put my passion aside and lets pretend I don’t know what brand you ride. Evidence against:
    1. You bought a motorcyle without truly understanding the history of the marque. a. Rivalry against company whose cloned engine you ride.
    i. Indian rally T-shirt: “It takes more than feathers and a skirt to turn a hog into an Indian!”
    ii. “The Harley Davidson and Indian Wars” by Alan Girdler.
    iii. “Flat Out, the Rollie Free Story” by Jerry Hatfield.
    b. 4-5 failed revival attempts. Some using other company’s engines: Enfield, Floyd Clymer. Others never materialized and robbed investors: Wayne Baughman.

    2. The antique riders of your marque despise you.
    a. me
    b. Antique rally T-shirt: “1901-1953, end of story”

    3. Your bike is worth maybe half what you paid for it.
    a. motor problems?
    b. IF you could sell it. Who would buy it?
    c. you could have had a real Indian that is still worth $20-25K

    ErieRugby I’ll be at Winterfest in Buffalo next month playing for Buff State Alumni. Ask for Malachai. On or off field, I’ll beat your ass, probably have already. I’ll ride my bikes over you when I’m done.

  53. 53 Al Jan 4th, 2008 at 11:24 am

    What a joke. I have ridden all kinds of bikes since I was a kid always wanted an original indian (a scout not a cheif) could not find one when I had the money and when I didnt there would be one available. I bought a gilroy scout and say what you want it is a great bike. Most whiners are the harley crowd cause no one even goes near there bikes when the indian is around. And as far as performance it is quicker and handles rather well for a big bike. I personally do not fit on a harley they are to small but the gilroy fit me right off the show room floor. You ride what you want dont give a rats ass what your choice is but when you get the pinheads like doug who start with the highschool threats man thats a joke. I hope he runs into me one day and tries that BS.

    Good luck to indian I wish them all the success in the world. I hope they do alot better than gilroy or amf and I am not looking to buy one but that shouldnt stop them from trying to revive the first american motorcycle. The rest of you holier than thou types should get a grip.


  54. 54 Steve Jan 4th, 2008 at 11:40 am

    Doug, you need to learn a subject before you debate it.

    “using other company’s engines” just like they did in the days of the Springfield Indians. Gilroy kept the tradition alive.

  55. 55 Jay Jan 4th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    DOUG… I just started laughing at your rather pathetic point of view. You truly sound like your hanging on to a shred of lost dignity in your feeble attempt to hold on to something that was lost and could never, in it’s purest form at least, be resurrected. Your like an old’angry croon of a shell that defiantly holds on to the past, knowing the future is around the corner and your frustrated that there is nothing you can do as you as the precious “Indian Motorcycle” company urges back to ‘life’ like a zombie that really should roll over and die… but wont. Anyway… I just think it’s funny that your so angry… I guess I can understand. Being a Chicago Bears fan, I will always compare every winning Bears year to the 85’ Bears, knowing other then name, they have nothing in common.

    So my friend, at the end of the day…. You’re a lonely old’chief smoking some bad sh!t.

    : )

  56. 56 Gomez Jan 4th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    Steve, I called the guys at Kiwi…their bikes, turn-key, start at $27k. Call and ask for Steve (should be easy for even you to remember). Yeah, you can spend $60k if you want, but isn’t that what you want to offer the consumer… choices? Pop, Jay, Al, KC et al, enjoy the ride and I’ll wave to you on the road. Cheers and Happy New Year everyone

  57. 57 Steve Jan 4th, 2008 at 5:18 pm

    Gomez, the Kiwi Bobber Starts at 27,500.00 paint.
    It’s an unpainted hardtail.

    $60,000 is for the “turn-key” Chief Replica.

  58. 58 Nicker Jan 4th, 2008 at 5:29 pm

    Now don’t you-all feel better…?
    Life isn’t a popularity contest.
    It’s one giant intelligence test.
    And these little “discussions” are simply pop-quizzes.
    Now, surviving, with your disintegrate in tact, that’s the Final Exam.

    God help me, but i love it so…..:-)


  59. 59 Nicker Jan 4th, 2008 at 5:35 pm


    “disintegrate” make that “integrity”

    Fucking spell checkers!


  60. 60 MrCatchmeifyoucan Jan 4th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Shut Up And Ride!
    Malachai is such an idiot name. I will be looking for you at Winterfest so get your bike out of the shop its in. Don’t worry if its not running, actually better for you – the pipes won’t burn you when I shove it up your ass. I can’t wait for the 05’06’07’08’09 to come out. Mine is on reserve now. Trust me when I say, my bike will blow you off the road, and afterwards I will help you put yours back together. But until then, ride safe…you prick.
    Buff State Almuni Rugby sucks
    p.s. Tell your mom The 09′ Indian rider says Hi…She’ll know who I am
    Hugs and Kisses Sissyboy

  61. 61 anudderbrokechief Jan 4th, 2008 at 9:14 pm


    As usual, Pop’s got it right, and his eloquence always astounds me.

    Yea, I’ve got an ’03 Chief. I didn’t get it because it was an Indian; I didn’t get it for the image or the heritage (mostly because I don’t know a heck of a lot about the heritage or the history); I didn’t get it for the performance (mostly because the dealer wouldn’t let me take it for a test ride so I didn’t know); I got this bike because when I walked by it, it literally made my jaw DROP. Yeah, I did a little research and found out about the problems, but the LOOKS. Now arguing about looks is like arguing about religion, there’s no winning. You either like the looks or not, and any attempts at arguing are immature and asinine. Like some great looking chicks, you just know they’re going to break your heart, but they’ll put a smile on your face before.

    Since I’ve had the bike, yup, I’ve had some of the aforementioned problems. And yup, I spent a couple of days and nights wrenching on starters, and relays, and head gaskets along with the regular maintenance I bestow on the bike. When the engine blows up (which according to most, is only a question of time), I’ll have it fixed. You know why: because on cold winter nights, I go out to the garage sometimes just to look at the bike. Don’t get me wrong, I RIDE the bike too, and that put’s a smile on my face. A couple of 1000 mile trips and day runs (I’ve never been stranded although starter failures requires push starts on several occasions); but it’s the looks that did me in. I’ve put over 8000 miles on this bike, and I own three other bikes that I’ve put roughly the same mileage on over the same time.

    If you “original” Indian owners hate me because of what I ride, you REALLY need to get a life. I’m certainly not riding any historical coattails because I don’t know (or care) about the history of some defunct company. I recognize the dedication and sweat that the ‘original’ Indian community has put into preserving HISTORY and hope that the new Indian management cuts them some slack. But, if you are a manufacturer that puts ANY logo (of a still-in-business company) on a part you’re going to owe somebody: period. There are also lots of dedicated people trying keep the parts supply alive for the Gilroys; that doesn’t make either group more noble. By the way, if the ‘New’ Indian has to make parts for the Springfield Indians in order to be considered ‘Real’, then we better shut the doors at Harley. Last time I checked, Harley doesn’t make or stock parts for anything made before 1999. And yes, if you manufacture a Harley part for the older bikes AND want to put a Harley Logo on it, they will charge you a licensing fee. No Harley Logo, No license fee. I’m hoping the new Indian is successful simply because I hope it’ll refresh the parts supply for my bike.

    Now, as has been said before, I’ll wave if our paths cross, don’t care what you’re riding; I’ll stop to try to help if you’ve broken down (I’ve even been known to stop for a broken down cager); I’ll listen to your stories; buy you a beer; and share my cigar stash and bourbon if we’re camped in the same area. I don’t care what you ride, what you do for a living, or where you live. I’m happy to share the road. But if you start talking crap . . .I’ll just walk away and share the road with someone that’s not a jerk.

    This is about as long a post as I’ve put on a discussion board – emotions are obviously running high. I’m looking forward to a break in the Midwest weather tomorrow so I can go for a ride . . . on my Suzuki. The Indian is really not the ideal machine for off-pavement riding. But rest assured, next time I’m set for an on-road adventure, the Indian is headed down the road.


  62. 62 Gomez Jan 4th, 2008 at 9:20 pm

    You guys are to f’n funny….didn’t know Cyril has a Rugby blog lmfao! Steve…and??? Splitting hairs are we…well okay, I stand corrected, $27,500, boy is MY face red now.

  63. 63 firebird77clone Jan 4th, 2008 at 10:16 pm



    Take THAT you ‘Harley clone’ accusers.

  64. 64 KC Cheef Jan 5th, 2008 at 2:40 am

    Yep–never owned by AMF.
    But since ’53 they’ve been owned–traded for –boughten–sold–and scammed by a whole lot of folks.

  65. 65 TR Jan 5th, 2008 at 2:42 am

    OK, so I have lurked on this disscussion for a wile now and have to add my share. I own and ride original Indians for about the last 15-20 years now and currently don’t plan on riding anything else……my choise. I have had the pleasure of knowing Mike from Kiwi Indian for almost as long and can not express how much respect I have for him and others like him. He has been a strong advocate for motorcycles and it shows. No smoke and false promises like the last few Indian companies. Guys like Mike (yes, there are others) have EARNED there place and the respect that goes with it. IF the new Indian company has any sence (are you listening?) you will follow his example. Build a bike and then ride the hell out of it……..not some hired flunky but Mr. President himself. Push it to the limit, break it, fix it and then break it again. Learn from your mistakes and improve on it. Then and only then may you START to gain the respect you will need to own this company. I don’t mean this sarcasticly but you don’t have the respect from the people you need on board. You have snubbed your nose at the one group of people you need to be on your side……..antique Indian motorcycle owners/riders. By strong arming them to pay up on a few extra parts they are selling to support there habit, you have pushed them aside and perhaps created a bigger problem for you. Why don’t you welcome them and learn from them instead we are looked down upon….why? Then you wonder why we don’t care for you? From what I see, the path your company is on is the same one that the last few Indian companys have taken……..and to where?? All I hear at the swap meets are the bashing of the latest “New Indian Motorcycle Company”. Can you possably immagine the PR you would get if you had us on your side? Look at the negative response Hardly had when the sent there goones to the swap meets to fine vendors for selling anything that had the bar and shield that wasn’t leagle. Granny got fined dearly for knitting that bar and shield pot holder!!! Are you going to stoop that low too? I think you have under estimated our numbers and the influence we can have.

    If you look at what Polaris has done with there bike, I think you will see what a new motorcycle company should be like. They started with a blank sheet of paper and started from scratch. They made misstakes, fixed them and now have a very respectable bike. They didn’t buy there reputation from some dead company in hopes of starting out on the top……THEY EARNED IT! Perhaps you should take into concideration on what it is going to take to earn your place. It won’t be easy but it is possable. The cards are stacked against you but with the right choises, it can be done.

    Good luck,

  66. 66 Nicker Jan 5th, 2008 at 2:56 am


    “… the LOOKS…. Like some great looking chicks, you just know they’re going to break your heart, but they’ll put a smile on your face before….”

    “… yup, I’ve had some of the aforementioned problems. And yup, I spent a couple of days and nights wrenching on starters, and relays, and head gaskets along with the regular maintenance I bestow on the bike. When the engine blows up …. I’ll have it fixed…”

    Dude, you’ve passed the quiz.
    Keep it up for the next 45 years and you’ll ace the Final!

    Good to hear from ya. Thanks much.


  67. 67 Nicker Jan 5th, 2008 at 3:06 am


    “…Please save the brotherhood of biker tolerance smoke for blowing up someone else’s ass…”

    Doug, ya got that part right.

    That politically correct “brother” thing is getting real old.
    The world is full of interesting scooter jocks, but by no stretch of the imagination are all of-em brothers.

    Anyone who thinks otherwise is in for some serious dissapointments.


  68. 68 KC Cheef Jan 5th, 2008 at 10:48 am

    I like these Springfield guys.
    They understand a lot of things.

    OKAY–next project WILL be looking for an old Indian, and riding some vintage iron.
    Hell I got a lead already.
    Anyone on here ever heard of or know Frenchy?
    Owns a ’47, and a ’48 Chief.
    Every time I meet up with that guys it cracks me up.
    He knows those old bikes so well, and has ridden them so long it’s amazing to watch him.

  69. 69 CHIEFWANNABE1 Jan 5th, 2008 at 11:02 am

    We can’t all live in the past, and living off the heritage of Indian is not one of them. If you want a flathead go buy a Kiwi Indian, but if you want an Indian with todays technology the new Indian sounds great..!

  70. 70 PPChief Jan 5th, 2008 at 11:27 am

    Wow, not many people seem to know the origins of the things they talk about.
    In the end, there’s different strokes for different folks. Some like to do it in the dirt, some are cafe types and some of us just love the open road, but all have one thing in common… The love of ridin’ 2 wheels.
    As for the “Harley thing” – HD owners are probably the only people in this country who buy big bikes they can’t handle for all the wrong reasons.
    Personaly, I wouldn’t want to go back to the “good ol days” when taking a trip of any length meant carrying a tire iron, spare tube, chain links, oil, bulbs, etc., etc.. Back then, many of us kept “spare” bikes to ride while working on the HD. (Mine was a Norton and most of the guys had Brit bikes till Honda came along)
    Still, it’s nice to see what people think.

  71. 71 goldiron Jan 5th, 2008 at 12:56 pm


    It would seem that a few things have precluded most riders from knowing how to repair their own bikes. The “right to repair” quagmire that was brought on with the advent of electronic fuel-injection and other electronic managed or controlled devices required expensive test gear and a long list of codes and what they meant to the average consumer and small, independent bike shop.

    The reliability of many other systems and components on motorcycles has been greatly improved.

    The current days of riding have changed. Many riders are now just “stylin” and “stuntin” rather than taking trips of any length.

    I recall the days of the “spare bike”. Needed something to chase down parts with.

  72. 72 TR Jan 5th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

    I guess I really don’t care what you ride as long as you ride and you have to do what ever it takes to get your “knees in the breeze”. But what I guess I am trying to say is that with so many that have tried to reserect the Indian, NONE of them have taken there product on the road to PROVE to the public on what it can or can not do. The bike companies used to do this at the turn of the century by racing or endurance test to prove that there product was good. How can the new Indian Company say they have a good product when they don’e even have one on the road to show me how good it is? (Gee……I guess Mike has!) Are they going to do like the last few Indian Companies and let there costomers be the guinnie pigs or are they going to grow a set of balls, get out of there corperate easy chairs and prove to me that actually have something that I can be impressed with?? So far I have seen nuthing but smoke and no fire, so how can I judge something that to date is fictional. IF and when the new company puts out a bike that has been put through the tests, road hard and put away wet so to speak, proven that they are in it for the long haul and not just another person trying to buy a spot in the industry…..THEN and ONLY then will I even concider the bike as a viable motorcycle. And it wouldn’t hurt that the president did most of the road testing himself to prove that they are as good as the bike. A product is only as good as the people behind it…….who are these people and what do they have to offer me? Are they compassionate about what they have to offer me or are they just in it to make a buck? So far with all the smoke, I feel that I need to get my prostate examinded again……… I would like to see the new company prove me wrong, but so far it’s the same ol’ story as the last few chapters in the Indians history book……..so untill then it’s “Indian Motorcycles 1901-1953….end of story”.

  73. 73 MrCatchmeifyoucan Jan 5th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    I just checked out the Indian website and looked through the pictures owners sent in. Pop is that a picture of you with Kim there? Kevin, the director of Seattle Iron Indians says, “We aim to ride side by side with all IRG members”. Also all 09′ owners are going to be given a one year membership in the IRG. We should be trying to rebuild the Indian name and improving on the bikes instead of this who’s dick is bigger mentality. Like any company, products need to be improved constantly to last. I would never own a harley because everywhere I go all I see are harleys. People that don’t even own bikes have harley decals, shirts, posters, tampons, and other crap that says harley. Ever since I saw my first Indain I fell in love. I am now able to own one so you better damn well believe I’m going to get one. I consider KM to be the logical progression that Indian needs right now. Look at the poser Billy Joel who had the OCC clowns build him an Indian bike…now that is a farce. Doug, I will ride side by side with you and I will also have a beer with you after any rugby game. We don’t need to fight within our own ranks. Sure I have the utmost respect for any Indian rider that has an original bike out on the road now but you guys have got to accept that there is going to be an Indian revival and it would help you to help us make it. I think the KM guys should cut you guys a break and I hope money is not the reason Indian fails again. Everyone on this website rides because they love to ride. We are not hitching our wagons to your heritage we are helping to keep the heritage alive. Lets pool our resources to leave the harley riders in our dust and get along so that INDIAN becomes even better than what it was.
    Ride Long, Ride Hard, Ride Safe

  74. 74 TR Jan 5th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

    I would like to agree with you on this MrCatchmeifyoucan but things that last don’t happen over night. The KM guys have better get started on the right foot or there efferts may be in vain. So far they have pissed off alot of potential customers and supporters by “dissing” the antique bike owners. Alot of these people have a newer bike because they don’t care to ride them accross the country, or mamma can’t ride two up or ect. Why push them aside? There are too many advantages NOT to have them on-board. There are no fast lanes to the top and it will take time to dig out of the hole that the last few Indian companies have dug for them. We, the people with antique bikes, can eather give them a hand up or start filling in that hole. People like me are the ones who may be able to perswade a potential customer towards or away from a buisness. Personaly I dislike corperate HD for there beliefs, and altho I won’t protest out in front of there buisness, if someone ask’s me for my opinion on what type of a bike to buy……well, you see where I am going with this. There are WAY more advantages to having us on board than against you. I’m sorry guys but I don’t have a big dick, but I can have a small but significance outcome on your buisness by directing someone to or away from your product. If you feel that you can afford to maintain this opinion, good for you and more power to you. But untill then, only time and your actions will tell of your outcome.

  75. 75 Doug Jan 6th, 2008 at 7:03 am

    Sure opinions are like assholes. My first bike was an AMF Harley 2-stroke made in Italy and it was a piece of shit but I loved that bike. I understand your affection for your Gilroy or 09 chief. Please don’t lecture me about motorcycles being cool, any brand. I see Gilroys cheap on ebay and think half a second.
    Gilroy left antique guys alone but just the concept of calling a custom Harley an Indian was outrageous. Sales brochures lined up their bike with an old Chief, same color scheme. They were trying to sell something unique with a dash of nostalgia. It worked for the PT Crusier and the new Mustang.
    This new bike looks like where Gilroy left off. The bike looks like a custom Harley. People will admire it because they are tired of looking at Harleys and Japanese wanna bees.
    How about you buy an Honda American Classic Edition, knock off the badges, put Harley emblems on, and go to a HOG rally? How will they react to you? Every excuse used above applies: reliability, modern, different, etc.
    Is it any different from putting a hot rod harley (S&S) motor in a CMC custom frame and calling it Indian? The bottle cap motor is still a Harley with minor changes.
    If you don’t care about the past buy some other custom “not-harley”. OK Steve, George Hendee outsourced a motor for the first year or so then designed from scratch.
    I bought my antique Scout and took years to restore it. Painfully learned how to ride it: left hand throttle, foot clutch, right hand shift, manual spark advance, kick start. Bought every book on Indian available, have most of them autographed. Read “Rebuilding the Indian” by Fred Haefele. Restoring an antique Indian is a journey. The tank decal is like a biker gang patch I’ve earned. How do the Hells Angels feel when someone takes their patch? Most guys who own antique Indians are too old or polite to tell you what they really feel about new Indians. Not me.
    “Catchme”, I’ll have that beer whenever you want. I’ll be in Americade and Johnstown PA if you want to meet up. My mom can’t come, she’s 80.
    How about the new company designs new logos and symbols? Can they call it “Cowboy” instead of Indian?

  76. 76 TR Jan 6th, 2008 at 11:54 am

    I just got done going through there site and had to quit because I really felt nauseated. No wher does it tell what kind of testing they have done on there product……or plan on doing, in the shop or on the road. Personaly with the way they are doing things it will only be a matter of time before they are history once again. It’s been mentioned in this blog a few times all ready but with the economy the way it is, the motorcycle market has at least hit its plato (or even going soft as some claim) and there “high dollar attitude” about them not only owning the name but the history too?!? I understand that they are in it to make money but why do I feel like they are a buch of pimps? I give ’em three years….

  77. 77 Nicker Jan 7th, 2008 at 2:20 am


    “… you buy an Honda American Classic Edition, knock off the badges, put Harley emblems …”

    So, would that be like buying a “Guitar Hero” playstation video game and wanting to jam with Eric Clapton…??


  78. 78 Steve Jan 7th, 2008 at 12:16 pm


    the Kiwi Bobber Starts at 27,500.00 and that is raw. Cost for paint is in addition to the 27.
    And It’s a hardtail. Pretty high for a hardtail

    $60,000 is for the “turn-key” Chief Replica.

    All this info is on the Kiwi web site.

  79. 79 Gomez Jan 7th, 2008 at 2:35 pm


    $27.5k for a hand-built, made in the USA (if you still consider Calee-fornya the US, lol), reliable and road worthy “antique” and more than likely be the ONLY one at your local watering hole….not too shabby. $60k plus paint for the replica may be a bit pricey, but for those who have deep pockets and don’t want to rebuild an original…? It may not be that bad. ME, I’ll buy their parts for my rigid, ride my BMW, Buell et al for those longer rides (although, like I said, I have ridden a 48 across the country a few years back, and look up Dr Greg Frazier, he’s put a ton of miles on his Chief..). Rain’s comin’ gonna go for a putt before it gets bad. Steve, go for a ride yourself…if you have a bike.

  80. 80 TR Jan 7th, 2008 at 10:44 pm

    Your right Gomez about it being more of a costom bike instead of a production like bike. If Mike was moving a few thousand bikes a year, I am sure the price would come down alot. I would take one of his bikes for half the price over say….OCC!! I’m not awaire of them taking one of there street bikes 800 miles across desert.

  81. 81 RCH Jan 8th, 2008 at 5:24 pm

    Turning riders into wrenches since 1901…..

    Thanks for sharing this reading with me Pop, read it all from start to finish.

    Some get it, some don’t. Some will, some won’t. Me??? I just want to ride.

  82. 82 IronHorseman88 Jan 8th, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    I thought this blog was for adults. It doesn’t matter what you ride as long as you ride. I’ve ridden my share of bikes and I’ve done my time. I am going to get an 09′ Indian and I’m going to be proud of it. If you don’t want to wave to me as you pass by me or aren’t going to let me into a parking lot because my bikes’ not as cool as yours well then so be it. I will pull over to help any biker no matter what they’re riding. And when they comment on how cool my bike is, I’ll agree with them and ride away content. If somebody asks me about it I’ll tell them, Yes it’s an Indian, it’s an 09′ Indian. Made in America by Americans. No, please don’t be foolish enough to mistake it for an 01′ – 53′ original Indian but an 09′ Indian. I ride because I love to. I am going to ride the 09′ and if you hate me for it, good, I don’t have to ride with you. Call me any name you want, I’m the one enjoying the ride while your preoccupied with hating something for no reason other than to hate it.
    Ride Safe

  83. 83 ANT Jan 11th, 2008 at 7:11 pm

    I like Knucklehead’s sentence: “The group that undertook Indian have been successful in the past at bringing back businesses like Indian. One of note was Christ Craft.”

    Well that’s apropos as it appears that the 2 Steves have a messiah complex, and some think it’s gonna take a miracle for them to actually get into series production!

    V-Twin Expo….no listing of Indian having a display. Guess the Steves will attend as they did last year. I wonder if they’ll pull the same gag and look at me sideways instead of having the balls to actually say something.

  84. 84 pop Jan 14th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    OK, I would like to think that I could get through this post without touching off a rehash of the earlier bitter potshots in this thread. Here goes.

    It was reported here that Indian Motorcycle was firing off cease and desist orders to EBay vendors of Springfield era motorcycle parts. That seemed wrong to me on the surface of it.

    It ruffled enough feathers here, and elsewhere it turns out, that I did the due diligence.

    1st, I’m not going to report who told me and if that’s enough for you to discount it off the top, so be it. I told the person that I would not and I don’t break trusts. I do not believe that you will get any different bona fide info anywhere else either. But if you do please let us know.

    Indian Motorcycles has communicated to EBay that they will not tolerate the unlicensed sales of trinkets such as Chinese made Indian clocks and unofficial “official Kings Mountain” t shirts. This person went on to tell me that KM had mistakenly sought the removal of a Chief head Indian decal which was period correct but which KM had mistakenly included along with the Chief head decal modified for Drifter riders that KM did seek removal of. Upon discovery of that error, KM restored the period correct vendors permission.

    (I hope the Drifter guy has a spurt of personal growth and finds pride in his ride but to each his own.)

    Note that parts for Springfield era Indians are not mentioned here. I think that in time you may find that KM posts a notice of how they intend to defend their legal rights. I do not think that their defense will cause grief to the Springfield folks who are doing the best they can to keep their wheels on the road and don’t deserve misery from the new Indian. That said, the New Indian doesn’t deserve the misery heaped on it by the Springfield folks. I’m just saying at least see the bike before you shoot the builder.

  85. 85 ANT Jan 15th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Pop said “spurt”

    I’m pretty sure I know the vendor he’s referring to. They’ve been subjected to undue and unfair pressure by the head polo pony rider of Indian, and he’s not the only one. Not a good way to build bridges, unless your intent is to tear down all the ones you don’t own in order to build a toll bridge.

    Now then, I wonder what got KM all fired up to go after eBay in the first place, or more specifically, what/who got them to do this after them sitting on their spreading posteriors for some 4 years? Perhaps it was that they were informed that by singling out a company (that was NOT violating KM’s marks) and turning a blind eye to what others (who clearly ARE violating said marks) put them in a weak position? Funny how some who don’t have a sheepskin or an “Esq” after their name can see clearer than those with them.

  86. 86 injunwiz Jan 15th, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    Pop and ANT,

    I am the one who had my Ebay listing removed for the Indian tank decals. I contacted Ebay directly and emailed “Indian” as instructed. After two emails to them and no response I contacted Ebay again and asked if they would assist in resolving. I was contacted by a rep at “Indian” and was informed that it was in error IF my item was of Vintage era and not a new rip-off repop. I now state on my Ebay listings that ALL of my items listed are from the Original Springfield Indian factory if not stated otherwise. I do sometimes list parts remanufactured for the Origianl Indians that were made by American Indian M/C in the 1970’s and 1980’s or from Kiwi, Stark, or other major vendors. I am not distributing parts for these sources, only selling what I no longer need for my Chief projects. I own quite a few Indian Chiefs from 1933-up and now am at a point of sell off some of the parts I don’t need to be able to buy the parts I do need. I’m still in need of 1933 and 1934 Chief parts. ON ANOTHER NOTE: I factually know of TWO of the big dealers that have been around for years being contacted by “Indian” asking for 10% of thier sales. THAT is where the issue lies in my opinion!

  87. 87 ANT Jan 15th, 2008 at 4:14 pm

    Thanks for chiming in Injunwiz (but please don’t wiz on me, I stink enuff already)

    There’s nothing wrong with a company policing (protecting) it’s trademarks, and in turn, licensing use of same. It’s just the bombastic and heavy handed manner which KM exhibits at every level that I have issue with. Ford, GM etc long ago realized that a fair licensing program is a win win for all concerned, *including* the customer (it protects them from horrendously substandard goods).

    But to come out with hired guns a-blazing ain’t a gonna win you no popularity contests, and the trickle down (our leg) ends up pissing off the end users. Ultimately everyone loses.

    And I too can point out a slew of people who are having more tangible goods than trinkets manufactured with the Indian logo…not just knock offs, but the exact same parts and often from the original suppliers. And if I ever get a subpoena I’ll just wipe my personal exhaust pipe with it and send it right back.

  88. 88 ANT Jan 15th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

    Latest flash…2010

    That surprises me about as much as finding “Made in China” on about 99% of the items in Walmart, or seeing gas prices continue going up.

  89. 89 Gomez Jan 16th, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    John’s right, I know of the 10% fee that’s been bandied about by KM….A little arrogant of them asking that much. It will only affect us end users as the big three will just increase their prices. A licensing fee is one thing, strong arm robbery is another.

  90. 90 Pop Jan 16th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    Injunwiz, thanks for the reply. My inquiries were specific to the EBay issue and it appears that what I got back and what you experienced seem to jibe.

    As far as the two dealers getting letters from KM, I don’t doubt you are reporting the facts. Not knowing the details I can only look at the history of these copyright things. We all are aware of how zealous HD got in the 80’s. Many shops, both small and large got subpeonawhipped about using the bar and shield. If the dealers you speak of are selling in volume and their occupation is to traffic in Indian branded items, I imagine they need to get their own lawyers to work out an arrangement. I’m not happy to hear that the new owners of the mark may be rousting people like Vaughan Beals and his ilk did and continue to do, but at the same time I am a true believer in free market and the laws that govern it and if you pay to own intellectual property then you have the right to profit from its use. Assuming, Ant, that your acquisition of that IP was on the up and up but that’s a story for another campfire.

    KM bought the rights, they can pursue claims as owners. I’m told by some of the characters that I hang around with that the owner of a mark has to defend the ownership or risk losing it. I don’t know. Let the lawyers figure that stuff out. Nonetheless they bought the mark and as HD proved over and over, they have the right to seek redress when someone uses it without their consent.

    I will say that at this time I am of the opinion that they are not pursuing action against a lot of people that they could which is a positive thing unless you are among those that they chased. I hope that they come to understand that restraint is good PR and good
    PR is sales.

  91. 91 injunwiz Jan 16th, 2008 at 6:00 pm


    I completely agree with your statement and yes, they must defend the Trademark to claim rights to it. I believe that the Antique Indian Dealers are the ones at highest “risk”, as they have nothing in common with the “New” Indian and have been producing parts for the Flatheads for years and keeping the Brand on the road. An agreement between the two would solve the issue, 10% doesn’t seem fair to me though… My wooden nickel’s worth.

  92. 92 ANT Jan 16th, 2008 at 11:28 pm

    I’m afraid that your nickel has dry rot, termites, and violates the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990 and you will be receiving a cease and desist order shortly.

    Besides, it ain’t worth the pulp it was carved out of.

  93. 93 Nicker Jan 17th, 2008 at 4:30 am

    Seems that Gilroy putting the bite on Springfield repro-vendors would be like the Teamsters put-n the bite on New York horse drawn wagon drivers (the only “real teamsters”).

    I’m no legal-beagle, but there must be some sort-a “imminent domain” that would cover these vendors…?

    Hell, even the receivers of Royal Enfield didn’t fool with the folks in India who are still pumping out “Enfiled Bullets” to this day.

    The “just protecting the trademark” story doesn’t seem credible.
    What did Gilroy think they were buying?


  94. 94 Doug Jan 18th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    There is an actual Indian tribe in Oregon fighting for the rights to the brand with the Indian Arts and Crafts act of 1990. The law was created for tribe’s rights to artifacts being sold or auctioned to museums.
    they have a prototype on display in their Casino and on their website:
    It doesn’t look like it runs. It also looks like they have been at it since before Gilroy got the marque in the 90’s.

  95. 95 Pop Jan 18th, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    Nicker, the RE thing differs in a couple of key ways. India is a continuing Royal Enfield manufacturing facility although under different ownership. Further, the copyright thing is a federal statute, not internationally recognized. You can sell an inline four manufactured in Europe and sold there as the Indian 4 Dakota, but efforts to bring it here have been problematic, not least of which is the required rebadging as the Dakota 4.
    I doubt that Stellican bought into the Indian game with any intent to take it to the Springfield guys, and I do believe that when you look at the list of American motorcycle top guns that they have brought inhouse that they aren’t focused on chasing Kiwi or Starklite for a cut. They have a motorcycle to build.
    That said, so does Harley and they have a whole leagal arm dedicated to spanking anybody that doesn’t pony up the vigorish. The difference being that Indian has a lot smaller pot of money to pay ambulance chasers so even if they do get thirsty for bloodmoney at least the economies of scale will keep it to a minimum.
    By the way, briefly there was a vid on Utube of what is said to be the prototype. Too fast and blurry for me to get much from it, but it was a bike and it was hauling ass and that’s always good to see.
    Whatever it was it was briefly released by KM for public view and then pulled by them. At least they are making some noise.

  96. 96 Nicker Jan 18th, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    Good info.
    Thanks Pop.

    As an Enfield owner and former US Enfield Owners Club member, my recollection of the India connection (through those sources) was that the India factory was originally operated under licence. But it was such a marginal activity, no one ever paid much attention to them. England had stopped producing 350 and 500 singles because there wasn’t a market for them. Indians couldn’t afford 750 Interceptors so there was no conflict. The Indian market for big bikes was the 350 Bullet and it apparently wasn’t a real money maker.

    So, when Enfield finally went belly-up in, i believe it was about 1969/1970, the receivers forgot about the India operation. In fact noone enven knew they wer still makinf Bullet in India till the Indian factory tried to export them to the American vintage market just a few years ago.

    Owners of English Enfield Ltd. were so focused on the Hotrod bike market that they actually overlked the their intelectual proprerty in India.

    The Indians just kept developing that old single. And i guess they own it by default.


  97. 97 Nicker Jan 18th, 2008 at 8:14 pm


    That’s an interesting like.
    And the prototype motor (machined out of a billet) is unique.
    Running or not, it looks to me “like and Indian” would look had they continued evolving.

    And they seem to have some standing for brand ownership.


  98. 98 Steve Jan 21st, 2008 at 11:44 am


    They lost it back in 1998 to the group that started in Gilroy

    That was the Eller Indian


  99. 99 Joe Feb 5th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    This is America and I will ride what ever I want to ride. I like the idea of Stellican bringing the Indian brand back and I hope it works this time. It will be nice to keep those sharp looking newly engineered bikes around. Hopefully they will be more reliable than the Gilroy bikes. I plan to buy one if that is the case. I appreciate and respect the original Indians and their owners as much as any other owner that chooses and buys what they wish to own. Hey Doug, get over your self. you are not keeper of the Indian brand or any other. I look forward to you trying to take out your frustration on me if you happen to see me on my new Indian. It will be nice to see if my Indian and yours can fit in your asshole at the same time. Hope to see ya soon.

  100. 100 Doug Feb 6th, 2008 at 11:24 am

    Joe I’ll be in Americade and Johnstown PA. Maybe the Harley Happening too. I’ll have my 48′
    When you see me I’ll bet you blend into the crowd like your bike.
    Just remember how tough you were hiding behind your computer.

  101. 101 Ed Feb 8th, 2008 at 8:11 pm

    I like old vintage Indians & Kiwi Mike’s Indian motorcycles MUCH better!

  102. 102 Bill Feb 19th, 2008 at 1:48 am

    My Father had a picture of him sitting proudly on his 39 chief. He was proud of it. I’ve ridden bikes since I was 12 and even owned a couple of harleys amidst the jap bikes. To me, the wind is the wind and all this pride stuff has it’s place, but even Harley threw it’s “American” pride out the window as evidenced by the “made in Taiwan” stickers on much of it’s aftermarket stuff. When “Indian” from Gilroy re-introduced the new Powerplus, I thought it was beautiful and wanted an Indian too, like my Father. I purchased a used ’02 Gilroy when I could afford it and planned a trip from here in Idaho to California where he was living. My trip got snowed out and he died before I could proudly ride my big chief up to his front steps. To me Gilroy, or springfield, The swept headdress says something, and I’ve proudly ridden mine all over Idaho and Montana. 18,000 plus miles, she fineally muttered the infamous “Gilroy Knock” in Missoula. The big chief banged all the way home in 90 degree weather and pulled all the way to just west of Boise without letting me and the old lady down. I’ll throw a new set of flywheels, and whatever else it might need, in it this spring and we’ll be rolling proudly in my Fathers’ tire-tracks, and to me Thats’ what it’s all about anyway. I know the difference between the new ones and the old ones and respect the originals, but like I said, when the sun goes down, the wind was still the wind and will always be.

  103. 103 ANT Feb 19th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    Replace the wheels, repair pinion insert, oil pump upgrade (NOT the typical internal bypass but a True Internal Bypass), single fire ignition, drop the CR, check valve spring stack, adjustable pushrods, current flavor gaskets, clearance the case, etc etc etc. is what you need to get the potential out of these engines.

  104. 104 wilhoga Feb 21st, 2008 at 9:03 pm

    Man, I wouldn’t own an older Indian based on the elitist/high school attitiude shown here.

  105. 105 Doug Feb 23rd, 2008 at 9:00 am

    Good, jerkoff. I don’t want you to own an older Indian either.
    Your too stupid to see the only high school attitude is from people on copycat bikes talking about shoving motorcycles up people’s asses or people’s mothers. That or pussies talking tough behind their computer.

  106. 106 IronHorseman88 Feb 26th, 2008 at 12:07 am

    Get over yourself. You are not the be all and end all. Your bikes’ cool…so are a lot of other bikes. It’s going to happen whether you want it to or not. Hopefully your bike is going to get out of the shop soon so that you can ride and not constantly whine, you baby.

  107. 107 The Truth Feb 29th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    I guess i’d be pissed too if I spent all that coin on an older bike that is always broken down.

    The guy I ride with owns a 46 Chief and he always tells cunts like Doug.. that he’d rather have bought a new Indian due to all the maintenance and instability of the older ones.


  108. 108 Doug Mar 1st, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Ironasswipe and The Truth(fuckface),
    My bikes run. They aren’t in the shop. I don’t know where you got they they didn’t. Probably where you got the idea that anybody will give a shit about Gilroy or Stellican 50 years from now.
    They might get a 1/2 page in a history book like Clymer did with his Indians. Time will settle the score.
    I suppose I am whining: “how could you be so stupid?”

  109. 109 The Truth Mar 2nd, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    Your bikes don’t run. That’s why you’re so angry. All that coin tied up in ’em and you can’t even ride 30 miles straight.

    Just trade in your old crap for a new Kings Mountain Indian and you’ll be alright. Just ask your wife first.

    The Truth.

  110. 110 Gomez Mar 6th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

    Okay boys, time to get out of the sandbox and go home….geez Doug, I ride a 38 Chief and you’re making me cringe with your rhetoric…let them ride what ever they want, as long as they’re not in a SUV runnin’ my ass over I don’t care. I don’t have any respect for the KM gang, but they’re gonna do what they’re gonna do….jump on your Chief, let the sound sooth your soul and forget the rest. Truth, IH88 and wilhoga jump on your modern iron, er, alloy bikes and ride. I’ll wave at all of you….

  111. 111 Gomez Mar 6th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    oh, and Truth, your friend must be buying his parts from the local swap meets and not the modern replacements….I have 30K trouble free miles on my 38, yeah, it ain’t original anymore, but with guys like Kiwi, Ziggys, Rocky’s, The Shop, HP Cycles et al keeping these old steeds rolling, you won’t find us on the side of the road unless we’re helping a broke down Harley rider.

  112. 112 Oldbluesdude Mar 13th, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    I’m not directing this at anyone in particular, but if the foo shits … I browse through a lot of fora (forums, for the unlatin) – I learn a lot. Unfortunately, What I’ve learned here is the square root of squat. Scratch that – I’ve learned than growing old is mandatory, growing up is obviously optional from reading some of these posts. Did I stumble on a gang of juvenile delinquents who are going to beat each other up because they think that will prove that the bike they ride is better than the bike the other guy rides? Man, give me a small break. As Mick and Keith wrote over 40 yrs ago: “Well baby, he can’t be a man ’cause he doesn’t smoke – the same cigarettes as me …”

    I’m with Pop. I’ve spent 2 weeks short of 60 years on this planet and I can’t believe the crap I’ve read in this thread. The few voices of sanity, like Pop & IronHorseman88 are drowned out by the infantile rantings of those with severe personality disorders – who probably shouldn’t be allowed to own a motorcycle. I shudder at the thought that they might even own a gun. Now THAT is a scary thought. If they came upon a stranded GI or KM rider in the night, they’d probably shoot them in the back for the heinous crime of owning a bike that had “I****n” on the tank. Hell, that’s worse than child molestation!

    I’ve been through this same crap with the music that I’ve been playing for 40 years –

    – you’re too young to play the blues
    – you’re too white to play the blues
    – you can’t play the blues with an electric guitar
    – you can’t play the blues with an acoustic guitar
    – you’re too old to play the blues

    and on and on and on and on ad nauseum.

    For God’s sake (and I mean that literally) GROW UP.

  113. 113 Nicker Mar 14th, 2008 at 3:31 am


    “…infantile rantings of those with severe personality disorders …”
    “…For God’s sake (and I mean that literally) GROW UP…”

    What part of “Biker” is it that you don’t understand?
    (-BTW- that’s a rhetorical question)

    Ya, it’s like Clapton hailing Robert Johnson “uber alles,” cause BB king never had hands like that.
    And i’ll tell em all, no one ever played like Lenny Brau, when he was clean, anyway. The dude does Travis-Atkins double-time with harmonics!

    Time to pop in Crossroads-07, get down the Gretch-n play along with the boys.
    Did you catch the 16 year old girl playn bass with Jeff Beck on disk-2…!?
    Man, She makes Jocko Pastorius look like a piker!

    -nicker- ………….. 🙂

  114. 114 Oldbluesdude Mar 15th, 2008 at 5:05 pm


    Lennie lived in my town off an on – his daughter still lives here – she did a bio-documentary a few years back. There’s a great anecdote – when he met Chet Atkins he played one of Chet’s tunes for him, and asked if he’d got it right – he wan’t sure he’d figured it out properly. Chet apparently shook his head and said something to this effect: “Man – I double-tracked that – and you just played both parts at the same time!” You are right – there has never been another like him. Too bad he was cut down in his prime by nefarious means.


    P.S.: I did catch a snippet of Jeff Beck’s wunderkind bass player. Amazing. If you want to see another up and comer, search “Sean Sullivan” on Youtube, and pick the clip of his 10 or 11 yr old kid trading licks with Buddy Guy. If this kid even improves by 20% over the next 10 years, it’s gonna be a scary thing.


    RIP, Jeff Healy.

  115. 115 Nicker Mar 15th, 2008 at 9:13 pm


    Yap, Lennie picking Travis/Atkins style is like nothing i ever heard.
    And i’ve been a Less Paul fann since his TV days.

    Randy Bachman is putting out CDs with everything Lennie ever recorded.
    Even has an interview with his mom.
    (see guitar archives inc.)

    “…his daughter still lives here …”
    If you ever see her give he my regards and sing her dad’s praises.

    It’s weird how many Bikers ya run into are “closet” musicians too…?
    Thanks much.


  116. 116 Doug Mar 23rd, 2008 at 6:31 am

    Keeping with the music analogy, the new Indians are like Vanilla Ice. Undeniably popular but where is he now?
    He sold a lot of albums to posers and teenage girls but was never accepted by real rappers.
    KM will sell Indians to a lot of posers but will never be accepted by real Indian owners.

  117. 117 homer Apr 7th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    Wow…such hatred being from people who should be building bridges….As a rugger and an Indian owner–two things that require a helluva lot of passion–I’m repulsed at some of the elitist attitudes from both camps..

    I’m all about all things Indian…The $$ i’ve blownon clothing, my collectibles and memorbilia, etc could support a small country for a year or two…I own two Gilroy era bikes–bought because my friends (some who ride Springfields) advised me to buy new, as I was not an experienced wrench..( I laugh at the irony in that now)…I hope to own Springfield era bikes soon, and more than likely KM era bike(s).. a bike with help from Kiwi Mike or Starklite, etc would also be an awesome addition.

    IMO, as for aesthetics, Gilroy got close to producing what Springfield would have been producing in contemporary times..if you think Indian would be building something that looked like a 53 chief currently, you’re simply mistaken…maybe there would be a retro model, but not an entire line of bikes. It’s growth and evolution….Chevy isn’t making Z06 vettes look like 58 vettes…I personally was not a fan of the Eller bike, and as for the engine–I think it was only a wood mockup, and never made it to the test stage (could be wrong on that)…

    I see names i’m familiar with –POP, KC, Ant, Kiwi, RCH, etc and have met all in person or online. We have varying opinions and beliefs..varying degrees of personal and financial interest in what KM does, but we have all managed to help each other at some time or another, and have no doubt anyone I’ve met would not offer assistance if needed..

    It amazes me that some in the contemporary camp and in the vintage camp choose to not respect each other. My vision (and from my speaking with the KM camp, their vision also) is for a unified brand; with Springfield, Gilroy and KM bikes riding and enjoying each others company and rides.
    There has been much movement–the ’09 bike is in final testing and pre-production w/the PowerPlus 105 engine format; the factory owned dealership is progressing as planned; check out their website..join the Iron Indians at the Branson Rallly in May–one of the largest gatherings of Indians (mostly Gilroys, but a growing number of Springfields) in the country. Indian will be there, you can judge then and Gilroy owners for yourself.

    We always bitch about the egos of HD owners..and yet we sure the same elitist attitudes when dealing with each other…to threaten and invite physical harm to another because of the type of motorcycle one rides is not only immature, but may also point to some underlying problems one may need to seek help for…the good thing about the anonynomity the net affords is that it often lets you decide in advance who to ride with, and who to ride by..
    feel free to check out my site at http://www.indianmcinfo.com –support info for Gilroys and I have some support info i’m acquiring for Springfields that I will put on…if you have something that would be a good addition, please send it…

    -eric-…Indian owner, rugby player and closet musician….

  118. 118 Power Stroke Apr 7th, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    Pop being described as “a girl that comes out the bathroom with her skirt tucked in her underwear” when he’s riding his Chief Vintage is just funny!

    When I ride with Pop thats not the image I get, nor do I think anyone thats ever met Pop gets that image when he pulls up on his Gilroy.

    Damn thats funny!

    You “Vintage” or “Legacy” owners as IMI calls you need to get over yourselves, us Gilroy and soon to be Kings Mountain Indian riders are here and here to stay.

    As Butch Baer said to me once “It doesn’t matter what Indian you ride as long as it’s an Indian, and soon you’ll be able to say you ride a Kings Mountain Indian”

  119. 119 Harleynot Apr 8th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

    Doug is a just a dxxk, I’d like to stoop down to his level for this post.
    MOST all Gilroy Indian riders cherish the 1901 thru 1953 bikes. They bought Gilroy bikes because of the styling of past Indians as well as it’s racing heritage. Doug’s precious antique is just that.

    I’ll also bet he can’t actually take the shirt off most Girlroy riders. BRANSON BABY! 34 DAYS AND COUNTING !
    Nothing but Indians and friends with similar class!
    I’ll be there, doogy, riding right next to your prescious springfields and lovng every minute of it!

  120. 120 KC Cheef Apr 10th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

    Hey Harleynot.
    Nothing but Indians?
    I can remember a time when ALL RIDERS, and ALL MAKES OF MOTORCYCLES were welcomed.
    Times–How they change.

  121. 121 KC Cheef Apr 13th, 2008 at 1:08 pm

    Take a look at the Indian Motorcycle home page, and come back and tell us where you see the Gilroy bikes mentioned by KM.
    No–they try to associate heavily with Springfield, and our machines are pretty well left out.

    I’m anxiously awaiting your reply = because if Gilroy is mentioned on that site anywhere besides the blogs I guess I’m having a hard time finding it.
    Not saying it isn’t there–just wondering where it is.

  122. 122 John White Apr 26th, 2008 at 7:00 pm

    This published editorial fails to mention that Gilory Indian had a running Power Plus with fuel injection or that all Gilroy Power Plus engines were fuel injection ready.

    The statement that “It is clear that the company is not in a hurry to release new models” is news to no one, since we are going on the fifth year since the last bike. Furthermore, “new models” is a bit of a dream since Stellican has publically stated that its only model is the Chief.

    The entire article is loaded with more predictions. I will dress up my entire body with goose feathers if a 2008 Chief shows up for sale on a dealer floor. I will buy the thing and drive it naked down the main road in Sturgis. This will not come to pass because we have all been reading this predictions since 2003. Good luck to Stellican but their fuel injection power plus has already been on the market for years.

  123. 123 Bruce Apr 26th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    John White. I understand that the new engine is a brand new Powerplus. Not the Gilroy one. The article states that all Gilroy engine problems had been fixed. In addition it’s a 105″. One Chief will be released in 4 different models/options. You don’t know how to read? Why to be upset by a company taking the time, whatever the number of years it may take, to think and manufacture a reliable motorcycle. How long it takes any established motorcycle/car company to produce a new model? Always several years. You should know this. You talk too fast. You may be obliged to look for goose feathers.

  124. 124 Doug May 6th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

    Breaking News:
    The new Indian company has decided not to disgrace the name “Chief”. Instead they have elected to concentrate on 2 new models: The Burro and The Donkey. Both will perform as good as a stock Harley or worse than a japanese wannabe. The name change came about as a testament to the stubborn prospective owners who will still buy them even after the Gilroy lesson.
    Prospective buyers are encouraged to join the new owner club whose motto: “Just A Cool Kat Always Slick Sliding” identifies the members to the motorcycling community. Be the first on your block to plop down $1,000 and get a J.A.C.K.A.S.S. patch!
    The company is also working on another motto for riders: “A Sweet Soul Hoping Old Legacy Embellishes”, but Gilroy riders may contest its ownership.

  125. 125 The Truth May 22nd, 2008 at 5:28 pm

    You care too much.

  126. 126 sewerratt007 Jun 18th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

    Too bad a poor ecomony will kill this bike in a couple of years. Would love to have one but, cant afford it in this economy. Unfortunately living in Ohio doesnt give us the luxury of year round riding. But very glad to see someone make another attempt to keep the Indian Legend around. Best of luck I will continue to save maybe buy an 2012 model Scout. Save me a J.A.C.K.A.S.S. patch I will wear it when I get my Scout. For now, I will be passing Doug on my Japo-Mexo- Italiano Harley Davidson. Got three of them, One to ride two for spares. Who cares what you RIDE just RIDE! Hell, I my even get a Royal Enfield with sidecar just for kicks.

  127. 127 Larry Jenkins Sep 12th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    Re-badge a Kawasaki Vulcan Drifter, add some Osprey bags, and you will have the ultimate retro Chief ever made. This is the limited edition factory custom of the legendary CobraUSA one-off Cobra Super Chief.

  128. 128 biggs Oct 29th, 2008 at 10:52 am

    Doug the only jackass is you!!! Shove your girl sized harley and your make belive old indian where the don’t shine!!!!

  129. 129 Clas Jan 11th, 2009 at 1:59 am

    Hi people.

    A swede here with limited knowledge about Indian bikes. The most of you seem to know almost everything there is about the bikes. So hopefully you will provide me with the info I need.

    I´m going to buy my first bike and intend to ride it untill I die. I want to use it for long, long rides across our continent or long rides overall.

    Would it be a terrible idea to buy a vintage Indian Chief that has been restored to it´s former glory? Am I better of with a japanese bike in the begining and move up to a Chief later on?

    Is it hard to get spare parts to an old Chief? (expensive perhaps?)

    Thank you very much for your replies.


  130. 130 Chris Jan 28th, 2009 at 9:49 am

    I happened on to this site cause I’m buyin a 2003 Vintage Chief at a unreal price, and saw the negative comments, now I’m wonderin about the rear head gasket and the flywheels, are these problems as prevelent as these people say or what? And can I get the parts to fix it? Please reply…..

  131. 131 free Feb 3rd, 2009 at 11:59 pm

    a friend of mine bought the chief when they came out with there motor lasttime. He had less than 4000 miles om it and they closed. his dealer voided the warranty. I rode the bike many times and yes it had plenty of power BUT: first yr the speedometer filled up with water, replaced for 400, 2nd yr wiring harness caught on fire, and recently motor had to be rebuilt. the chrome started pealing at 2,000 miles. now he has about 32,000 in it and couldnt sell it for 14k this Last season. ID say ill wait for 10 or more years before even considering it. a compant comeback is possible but not likely gonna spark alot of enterest this time!

  132. 132 free Feb 4th, 2009 at 12:06 am

    Chris theres a reason its a quote ” unreal price” ITS JUNK”!

  133. 133 BRAD Mar 5th, 2009 at 7:45 pm


  134. 134 John Wayne Bercier Apr 7th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    I think the bike is sleek and refined! I like the old bikes too with their antiqueness! I don’t like the judgmentmental people who think they are all that! You sound like predjudice assholes! I ride a 2003 spirit and I love it. I ride it not to be who you are! I ride it to be me!

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