Desperately Looking For A Woman Welder

Received an email from Jennifer Simpson, Blog Editor of Carmen Electrode. She tells me that there’s been a lot of talk about the welder shortage and a lot of talk about why women don’t become welders. In her Blog, she is knocking down some of the preconceived notions about what kind of work welding is, and what kind of women weld. She wants people to know that welding is not necessarily too dirty or physically demanding for women. And to prove it, she is featuring women doing this job, like Debra Montgomery who is running a fabrication shop with her husband, and Stefi Beck (picture), a steamfitter by day and also singer/song writer and guitar player at night. So, if you are a woman welder, Jennifer wants to promote you. And if you are looking for a new welder you should also visit her site at Carmen Electrode.

Zipper's

24 Responses to “Desperately Looking For A Woman Welder”


  1. 1 Slag Apr 20th, 2008 at 10:31 am

    This is all 100 % true. Being a welder for a career number of years I can attest to this.

  2. 2 Nicker Apr 20th, 2008 at 9:20 pm

    Cyril,

    Well, on the one hand, after 18 months of rebuilding the backyard Deck and Dock infrastructure, all the structural bracing being galvanised, suffice it to say, for right now the bloom is sort-a off “the welding rose,” …for me anyway…….. 🙁

    On the other, had i taken the time to implement some sort-a fresh-air-collar, welding might seem a bit more “glamorous”…… cool new welding threads not withstanding… 🙂

    But i digress.
    It certainly is an interesting thread.

    RE:
    “… there’s been a lot of talk about the welder shortage …”

    Not to mention a great link.
    http://www.carmenelectrode.com/

    RE:
    “…A recent study sponsored by The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers found that 75 percent of Americans favor a government program that would provide any qualified U.S. resident with two free years of post-high school education or training.

    The survey contended that one of the reasons the US emerged as a world economic super power following World War 1 was the implementation of compulsory secondary education. As the world’s economy has developed, the study says, so too has the need to increase the skill sets of today’s young adults beyond just secondary education…”

    OK, so, is this one more instance of an unintended negative consequences of a national Progressive liberal agenda?

    Where “every child must go to college” because intellectual pursuits are far superior to
    working with your hands….?

    Consequences along the lines of the more contemporary Progressive “Whole Language” experiment? That stupid idea eliminated Phonics and ended up creating an entire generation of non-readers.

    And now just as the school systems are all running to re-instituting phonics, are they also beginning to see the short sightedness of virtual eliminating most “Voc-Ed” programs and other such elitist liberal crap?

    RE:
    “…According to the study, 60 percent of new jobs created in the next decade will be in the blue-collar sector. To counteract the overwhelming emphasis on traditional college education and white-collar jobs, respondents in the study agreed nearly universally that students should have government-funded access to skilled trade
    education…”

    So, once again we are supposed to pay for the “government” to fix a progressive screw up.
    Isn’t this story is getting old?

    -nicker-

  3. 3 hoyt Apr 21st, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    no, we’re too busy paying for conservative invasions

  4. 4 Nicker Apr 21st, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    RE:
    “…paying for conservative invasions…”

    Well….. on balance, it seems preferable to “pay ” for our invasion there (eg, desert storm.. etc)
    than “paying” for two Liberal (eg Jimmy Carter, etc.) inspired World Trade center “invasion” here.

    just a thought
    -nicker-

  5. 5 hoyt Apr 22nd, 2008 at 12:44 am

    “on balance” ?

    “taking the fight to them in Iraq” is keeping you and the rest of the world “safer”, especially in the long term? Generations of new terrorists have been stoked by this invasion.

    “preferable to pay for our invasion there…” Many of us must travel internationally to keep US companies running strong and many more want to travel internationally for leisure. We haven’t even begun to know the costs.

    The fight can be ‘taken to them’ in more ways than just invading another middle eastern country.

    The staggering irony that bin laden was able to attack the Pentagon WITHOUT an airforce required quite an imagination.
    re-read: The strongest military in the world had its HQ (on its home soil) attacked by people without an airforce. Improbable execution, but he found other ways.

    Bush’s response? The unimaginative invasion of Iraq, then pulling a publicity stunt on an aircraft carrier (“Mission Accomplished”); all the while, terrorists were waiting until the dust settled and helping bin laden burrow away. Then we have McCain’s publicity stunt of his tour of Iraq….can’t imagine how many troops it took to keep McCain safe on that trip.

    Being against this invasion from day 1 does not make me a liberal. Furthermore, a stance against this invasion does not make liberals soft on terrorism.

    There are other ways.

    The best this country has operated has been when there has not been such a divide between liberal and conservative. We are a nation of people who think left and right, depending on the issue. Aside from, relatively-speaking, the minority who choose to further divide us, we are left and right of center.

  6. 6 Nicker Apr 23rd, 2008 at 4:19 am

    Hoyt,

    Well, i wont fight with ya over much of what you’ve said.

    Me, as a former European, i do travel overseas some.
    So… if ya travel and ya takes yer-chances. The reason doesn’t change the risk.
    And yes, i’d still just a soon see terrorists kept busy there than here.

    RE:
    “… pulling a publicity stunt …”

    Sure, publicity stunts have probably been a part of the political landscape since the Civil War.
    Look at the stunts FDR pulled getting us ready for WW-II.

    Hell, for that matter our “Nobel prize winner” Carter (the moron who set up the current Iranian situation) he’s at it right now…!!

    RE:
    “…Generations of new terrorists have been stoked by this invasion…”

    Well, one way to look at it:
    The Israelis may disagree about the “new” part. Terrorists have been strapping bombs on kids way before 9/11 and our response to it.

    RE:
    “… The staggering irony that bin laden was able to attack the Pentagon WITHOUT an air force required quite an imagination….”
    Ya, and if the Church Commission hadn’t cut the balls off our intelligence system, they may have had the budget to go over the material they had which pointed to that plot.

    But then a similar screw up got us Pearl Harbor. Some time ya just have to reconcile yourself with the fact that Humans are what they are, no more no less. History does repeat itself.

    Lets face it, 1960’s Progressive were so upset abut what US intelligence had done to groups like the weather underground (see Obama’s buddy) that they couldn’t wait to take revenge. Why else would Billy Jeff refusing to let-em use “not nice people” for gathering information.
    And so we ended up with 9/11.

    Bush may be a morn and publicity hound too, but his admin knew how to get a handle on terrorists and what they were up to (no thanks to our news media).

    Hell, i wasn’t at ease traveling over seas after the Akilylauro, Marine barracks in Lebanon, or African embassies.
    But, today Frankfurt airport doesn’t have near as many visible machine gun toting troops as it did years before 9/11.

    RE:
    “…Bush’s response? The unimaginative invasion of Iraq…”

    Don’t know what to tell ya.
    However, at some point the US had to stop “drawing lines” in the proverbial sand. And so, with the UN resolutions… etc…… to some people, probably Iraq looked like the “lowest spot in the swamp” to start a “draining project”….(????)

    But, having been born into the smoking rubble of one war and having fought in one, le-me tell-ya
    “imagination” stops the minute shit starts. There is no amount of creativity that gets ya past the horror and unpredictability of what happens next.

    RE:
    “… ‘taken it to them’ …”
    Historically, those with experience in that part of the wold have written that Arab politics exists as a binary condition. “Either you have your hands around the throat of your enemy or he has his hands around yours.” Negotiation is just so much window dressing.

    As i see it, ‘taken it to them’ with massive, swift brutality to end a conflict very quickly. It is the only moral strategy in any war. IMHO anyway…. Forget the John Wayne fantasies.

    RE:
    “…Being against this invasion from day 1 does not make me a liberal…”

    How does your particular political position change the argument…..?

    Good stuff, it gets one thinking.
    Thanks for the exchange.
    -nicker-

  7. 7 JoAnn Bortles Apr 23rd, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    20 years ago, welding was my job. I loved it. I started welding in 1976 on cars and bikes while I was in high school and afterwards took most any welding job I could get. But in the late 80s and early 90’s, manufacturing in CT was drying up as jobs went out of the country. Companies one by one laid off workers. Welders with over 20 years of experience, needed jobs and women like me (or anyone) with less than 20 did not have a chance.
    That was why I stopped welding. It was great work. And yes I miss it. Painting pays the bills these days and has for a long time, but at heart I will always be a welder.

  8. 8 burnout Apr 24th, 2008 at 11:21 am

    Nicker/Hoyt you are both right! and Thank you Ms Bortles for your contribution to this industry! peace

  9. 9 hoyt May 17th, 2008 at 11:51 am

    Nicker, the idea that the terrorists are “over there” and “we’re safer here”

    (Nicker: “And yes, i’d still just a soon see terrorists kept busy there than here.”)

    …forgets the fact that the terrorists were here to begin with. Concentrating them in Iraq has not removed their desire to hit us again. If anything, their concentrated presence in Iraq is serving as a great training ground instead of further breaking them down and thinning their ranks further and further. I said it above….future generations of terrorists have been “stoked”…i.e. brainwashing has been intensified and will result in concentrated and growing ranks of terrorists.

    That notion (fight them “there”) also ignores the fact that removing Hussein in Iraq gave Iran an advantage & confidence (all the while Afghanistan was not comprehensively dealt with * ). That fucker in Iran had to keep an eye on Hussein, whether we liked Hussein or not (and regardless if the Iraqis were living in fear or not). Essentially, one of Iran’s enemies (Iraq) was removed by Bush’s invasion of Iraq…Ahmadinejad must be thinking to himself: “thanks”

    * bin Laden further burrowed away and the Taliban was never extinguished….consider that we elect leaders to do their job. In Afghanistan, they did it half-assed. Would you be happy with a half-assed bike or welded frame?

  10. 10 Nicker May 17th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

    Hoyt,

    RE:
    “…In Afghanistan, they did it half-assed…”

    Can’t argue with ya there.
    No follow through.

    RE:
    “… whether we liked Hussein or not (and regardless if the Iraqis were living in fear or not…”

    As i see it, going to Iraq wasn’t about “liking Hussein.”
    It was about where and when to start draining the Islamic-terrorist swamp.
    It was a strategic issues and had nothing to with “the Iraqis were living in fear.”

    Had it been about the Iraqis, we should have impeached Carter before he ousted the Shae.
    Hell, no one in the wast said squat bout Saddam’s son feeding his girlfriends into paper shredders or any of that stuff. All the anti-American Left want to yammer about is the CIA hanging one Abu Ghraib prisoner by his arms. So, 30 minutes into this “torture” the guy has a heart attack and dies. Hell, the NVA did worse than that to Mccain for months on end!

    Afghanistan and Iraq and a bunch of other places around the world that don’t make the news is about a “clash of Civilizations”…. WW-III.

    If you remember your history the Sha of Iran was a modern day Ataturk (see Mustafa Kemal Ataturk).
    He and people like Anwar Sedat were those few willing to bring the Muslim world into the (then) 20th century. And Anwar Sedat was killed, and not by an Israeli commando but by a fellow Egyptian whose successor, by the way, is the #2 guy in Mr. bin Laden’s organization.

    Ya gotta remember that 9/11 simply showed us that WW-III is being escalated. And about the only good thing (besides Court Justices) that “Bush the Younger” has done is recognize this fact, for which history will vindicate him.

    And yes, there is a reading list for “this lecture”…………. 🙂

    -nicker-

  11. 11 hoyt May 20th, 2008 at 1:58 am

    “As i see it, going to Iraq wasn’t about “liking Hussein.”
    It was about where and when to start draining the Islamic-terrorist swamp.
    It was a strategic issues and had nothing to with “the Iraqis were living in fear.” ”

    I don’t think it was about liking hussein or not either, but the point I made was that we removed one person that kept Iran busy while at the same time giving Iran a training ground (how many terrorists have entered Iraq through Iran?)

    Vindicate ? Wow. Never. The only strategy was to go after their oil.

    “….draining the Islamic-terrorist swamp” isn’t even close. Bush-Cheney saw the graphic violence of planes crashing into buildings as the “shoe-in” reason to get the headline-reading American public to stop thinking for themselves and to support an absurd and ill-timed invasion.

    Bush has escalaed WW III more than a group that has no Airforce or Navy could ever dream of.

    If we had done the job in Afghanistan like it should have been done, we would have more international support for the next chapters : dealing with Iran, Iraq, N Korea, the African continent, etc.

    The bulk of $ 600 BILLION and counting going into Iraq would not be hanging over our head…..imagine what a fraction of that money could be spent on here….continued research in alternative fuel sources perhaps? What would the scientists who are studying harvesting algae for fuel be able to do with $30 million? $70 million? $ 2 billion? $25 billion?

    You’re supporting a $600 billion invasion, but you probably thought “socialism” when you read the above comment that suggests the US government invests in alternative domestic energy fuel sources.

    .3 % of the current tally in the Iraq invasion = $2 billion. (that is “point” 3% , not 3 %)

    4% of 600 billion = 24 billion.

    The caves of Afghanistan should be a tourist destination by now.

  12. 12 Nicker May 22nd, 2008 at 2:32 am

    RE:
    “…to support an absurd and ill-timed invasion…”
    “…The only strategy was to go after their oil…”

    Wait, your confusing me……..
    If oil is all they were after….. Where is all that oil…….???
    And why was “Bushy-boy” just now over there begging his Saudi buddies to pump more oil….???

    RE:
    “…we removed one person that kept Iran busy …”

    What, he was so busy with Iran that he had time to invade Kuwait……???
    His war with Iran was over.

    RE:
    “…If we had done the job in Afghanistan like it should have been done…”

    Hell, i already gave ya that one…..
    And if a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his ass every time he hopped.

    RE:
    “….Afghanistan should be a tourist destination …”

    Rocky & Bullwinckle called it “Ash-can-istan” for a reason…….. 🙂

    RE:
    “…US government invests in alternative domestic energy fuel sources….”

    Talk to the environmentalists about their hatred of Nuk-power.
    (forget about the Solar & Wind pipe dream)

    RE:
    “…international support for the next chapters …”

    Get real.
    Most European nations are scared to upset their domestic Muslims.
    Do you really think they are gonna help us….?
    Look at what the Europeans conned that moron Clinton into doing in Bosnia (Monica not with standing).

    RE:
    “..dealing with Iran, Iraq, …… the African continent, etc….”

    Yep, were certainly going to have to deal with Islam there. Not to mention other places.
    In 1970 Muslims were less than (as i recall) like 15% of the worlds population.
    Today, population-wise, they are about even with the West.
    The world’s Muslim reproduction rate is at about 7:1.
    America is holding at about 1:1.
    Most of Europe is under replacement levels and will eventually become Muslim.

    Their growing population and Islam’s lack of Reformation is the impetus behind WW-III.
    In the scope of WW-III a “.. $600 billion invasion..” will look like chicken feed.

    Forget about that Kinder/Gentler Socialist crap. It’s time to toughen up.
    And @ $5 a gallon fuel (this summer?) will give us a small taste of how tough it could get.

    -nicker-

  13. 13 hoyt May 23rd, 2008 at 11:08 pm

    Because Bush’s “Mission Accomplished” hasn’t gone the way he planned, doesn’t change the fact that oil is still there. Weak argument on your part to suggest that because bush is asking Saudis to increase production that oil doesn’t exist in Iraq.

    “What, he was so busy with Iran that he had time to invade Kuwait……???
    His war with Iran was over.”

    Sorry if you don’t think Hussein in Iraq “distracted” Iran long enough for the US to more effectively deal with Afghanistan.

    There are desolate places in this country and northern Africa that if, “planted” with modern solar farms could produce a lot of power. Lots of literature out there about this topic.

    Utility companies have actually purchased surplus power from residential homes and sold it back through the grid for more profit than other sources of harnessing power themselves. You assumed that I suggested solar (I didn’t mention anything about wind) would replace everything. Far from the truth.

    Your drivel about Muslin & Islam is stereo typing that huge religion is something to fear and that the psychotic minority represents the majority. Wrong. You wouldn’t like someone to do that with your religion.

    “Freedom of Religion” sound familiar? Interesting how some people who wave the flag the most (thump the bible, too?) are the ones that contradict basic fundamentals of this country. e.g. Rod Parsley thinks America was founded in part to destroy Islam. Really?

    “Forget about that Kinder/Gentler Socialist crap. It’s time to toughen up.”

    I knew it would come out of you sooner or later. Re-read one of my earlier comments. You assume that being smarter is being soft on terror. You also assume that finding other ways doesn’t involve the use of force.

    “time to toughen up”. Yep….mentally and strategically. There are other ways.

    “socialist crap”. Re-read the math above and my comment where I anticipated you calling it socialism while you foolishly support the Iraq invasion.

    What would a fraction of the $600 billion (AND COUNTING) Iraq war chest yield if it was invested in domestic alternative energy? note: I’m not suggesting this would magically switch all our energy needs at once.

    The power of money not being spent in the mid-east, while being spent domesitcally AND producing revenue at home does not interest you in anyway? That does pose a better deterrent to your fear-mongering WWIII than the support of the “stay the course” mindless plan.

  14. 14 Nicker May 24th, 2008 at 3:13 am

    Hoyt,
    Here’s the short version::
    -1- Last time i looked at existing laws, there was a prohibition on linking politics and religion.
    Any church that preaches a political agenda looses its tax exempt status (It isn’t recognized a church). Island isn’t just a religion.

    -3- And any time alternative energy won’t run your welder it useless.

    Here’s the long version:
    RE:
    “…“Freedom of Religion” sound familiar? Interesting how some people who wave the flag the most (thump the bible, too?) are the ones that contradict basic fundamentals of this country. e.g. Rod Parsley thinks America was founded in part to destroy Islam. Really?…”

    Exactly where did you get your information about Islam….?????
    You seem to have the same misguided outlook as Bush-the-younger…… 🙂
    His excuse is he’s been hanging out with the Saudis too long.
    What’s yours?

    Look, if Islam were just another religion you’d have a point, however it isn’t.
    Islam is a socio-political ideology in a religious wrapper.
    It’s a population controlling process. Has been, damn rear from the start.

    Muhammad’s first “edition” of Islam (the Mecca version) was rather benign.
    But Islam morphed into a much different animal shortly after it’s inception (the Medina version).
    And it is that repressive version of Islam that has proliferated through the brutal Arab empire and then taken on by the Ottoman Turks who used it to enslave the Balkans,

    For over 900 years without reformation this subjugating way of life had been spread. And its spread is now being financed by the house-of-Saud, all over the world, including in America.

    RE:
    “…solar farms could produce a lot of power. Lots of literature out there about this topic…”

    I know your smarter than that….. if were going to replace oil with any other energy source (like Hydrogen) the only mechanism to get us there, as an Industrial power, will be Atomic Energy.
    We already know how to do it, no research is necessary.

    The simple question is: Do you want us to remain an Industrial power…?
    Dude, NO amount of solar panels on my roof are going to run my welder……… 🙂
    This simple fact is, at it’s core the Global Green movement isn’t about the environment at all.
    The international Green movement is about a new agenda.

    Obama let that agenda slip out yesterday when he said that “Americans shouldn’t eat so much”
    and that the “world doesn’t like us running out thermostats at 70.”
    The Global Greens have had this agenda for years……. (my European relatives call it communism).
    And in order to implement that agenda the America’s preeminence must be crushed.

    RE:
    “…I anticipated you calling it socialism while you foolishly….”

    Ya, i love to throw in digs about socialism when i’m dealing with Liberals or other “useful idiots”…… 🙂
    Now if i find i’m dealing with “fellow travelers”…. that’s when i turn nasty….. 🙁

    RE:
    “…Yep….mentally and strategically. There are other ways…”

    No, for me there aren’t.
    It’s time to kick-ass and take names (and forget to bring pencils).

    IMHO anyway…. 🙂
    -nicker-

  15. 15 hoyt May 26th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    Careful….the first sign of a losing debate is when the loser resorts to name calling 🙂 :

    nicker: “Ya, i love to throw in digs about socialism when i’m dealing with Liberals or other “useful idiots”……

    Not that I’m “hurt” in anyway by name calling. Just pointing that out.

    nicker:

    “-1- Last time i looked at existing laws, there was a prohibition on linking politics and religion.
    Any church that preaches a political agenda looses its tax exempt status (It isn’t recognized a church). ”

    Ok, but who is suggesting there is a link? Definitely not me. The current administration does by their acts.

    It would be interesting to see the dialogue between those Rod Parsley “parishoners” and someone stating their “church” is not a “church”. I don’t care. They believe they are on moral higher ground, they believe they are a church and they believe their money will (and has) influenced some politicians’ actions. Case in point: McCain is selling himself for their vote. That’s when I care. As anyone should care (whether it be Parsley or a radical Muslim)

    nicker: “Look, if Islam were just another religion you’d have a point, however it isn’t.
    Islam is a socio-political ideology in a religious wrapper.
    It’s a population controlling process. Has been, damn rear from the start.”

    ——-
    My point was that you are stereo typing millions of people. I didn’t suggest that the psychotic ways of the radical others shouldn’t be stopped. Your latest rant only supports your inability to differentiate the radical segments within any religion.

    You can either acknowledge there are radicals within any organzied religion as well as people who live the golden rule, no matter what interpretation of god they follow.

    -OR-

    you can prove you don’t live the golden rule yourself.

    nicker: “….a socio-political ideology in a religious wrapper.”

    All bullshit aside….you can easily say the same thing about many religious groups in this country who claim to be “christians”. Agree?

    nicker: “I know your smarter than that….. if were going to replace oil with any other energy source (like Hydrogen) the only mechanism to get us there, as an Industrial power, will be Atomic Energy.
    We already know how to do it, no research is necessary.”

    Spare me condescending dialogue. Where the hell did I say “replace” ? In fact, I even spelled it out for you:

    “You assumed that I suggested solar (I didn’t mention anything about wind) would replace everything. Far from the truth.”

    Nicker:
    “The simple question is: Do you want us to remain an Industrial power…?
    Dude, NO amount of solar panels on my roof are going to run my welder………
    This simple fact is, at it’s core the Global Green movement isn’t about the environment at all.
    The international Green movement is about a new agenda.

    Obama let that agenda slip out yesterday when he said that “Americans shouldn’t eat so much”
    and that the “world doesn’t like us running out thermostats at 70.”
    The Global Greens have had this agenda for years……. (my European relatives call it communism).
    And in order to implement that agenda the America’s preeminence must be crushed. ”

    ———
    That’s a lot of rambling…..from Industrial Power to obesity to communism to….. ?

    Prove solar energy will not run a welder. Solar runs laundry machines (including dryers which require a 220).

    I know of a regional brewery that is running on solar and wind. The heat required for large brewing kettles requires quite a bit of energy, but they manage to produce tasty stuff in quantities available from coast-to-coast.

    Obama is absolutely correct in stating Americans shouldn’t eat too much. Not only do you eat too much, but you eat too much crap. Look around….how many fast food strip malls & Quickie Marts filled with crap do you see?

    It will be interesting to see how you connected the dots between commentary about eating too much crap and letting an “agenda” slip.

    That should be good.

    ______________”RE:
    ______________“…Yep….mentally and strategically. There are other ways…”

    nicker:
    “No, for me there aren’t.
    It’s time to kick-ass and take names (and forget to bring pencils).”

    Done ! Nicker claims he doesn’t think there are ways to be smarter while using force. The equivalent of a “Goliath” using brute force without any tactical agility, strategy, or intelligence.

    Ok, history boy, what happened to Goliath?

    You continue to assume “other ways” does not include brute force or shedding blood.
    You continue to assume using multiple sources of energy equates to completely replacing the current paradigm.

    0 for 2.

  16. 16 Nicker May 28th, 2008 at 2:25 am

    OK, just to recalibrate this thread:
    My assertion has been that the lack of welders in the US can be laid at the feet of the intellectual elitists running our school systems.
    Moreover, these are the same people who would turn the US into a third world country so that the global economy can be made more equitable.
    And that “equity” would require the folks on this blog ride & modify Vespa Scooters instead of v-twins.

    Now back to addressing Hoyt’s latest comments.

    RE:
    “…the loser resorts to name calling…”

    So, is this in response to my quoting “useful-idiots”
    Actually, “useful idiots” is an historic reference.
    It’s a term Lenin and then Stalin used to identify those Liberals (mainly “The Trust”) that they were using to advance the Soviet international communist agenda (see “Com-Inter”).
    Gotta admit that the irony of clueless Intellectuals unknowingly working to enslave themselves is a historic reference that’s hard for me to resist….. 🙂
    But its certainly not “name calling.”

    RE:
    “..Your latest rant only supports your inability to differentiate the radical segments within any religion… … you are stereo typing millions of people…..I didn’t suggest that the psychotic ways of the radical others shouldn’t be stopped…”You can either acknowledge there are radicals within any organized religion as well as people who live the golden rule, no matter what interpretation of god they follow…”
    “…All bullshit aside….you can easily say the same thing about many religious groups in this country…”

    This is a good example of where we differ…. Big Time:
    As i read what you’ve written, You see “the psychotic ways of the [Islamic] radical” as equivalent to the “the radical segments within any religion.”

    But your position simply doesn’t square with reality.
    The radical Islamist the world over are essentially running Islam. And they run it in much the way the Mafia operates. The assertion that they are the same by any metric ( in scope, size, zeal..)
    simply defies credulity.
    Iran couldn’t be a better example. Here are a people who are smart.
    Hell, they have a space program for Chrits-sake!
    Yet they the Islamist are running the country.

    RE:
    “…you can prove you don’t live the golden rule yourself…”

    “Golden Rule”….???, …you got the wrong guy.
    The only golden rule i know “1st i survive” then i worry about the other stuff.

    RE:
    “…That’s a lot of rambling…..from Industrial Power to obesity to communism to…”

    Ya, it was an attempt to cover wide range of issues like global-green, Islam, etc. as primarily socio-political in origin and the tool of Leftist (globally and locally).
    And to prove my point i simply quoted the Leading Liberal (Obama).
    I thought the thread was obvious, but i guess i missed the mark……. 🙁

    RE:
    “…Spare me condescending dialogue…”

    Sorry, no condecention intended or implied.
    The “running my welder” statement was simply allegorical. Obviously, you can weld even using a 12V battery…..
    So, sure there are some stores and businesses that run off solar.

    But my point is that we simply can’t run the heavy industry that is the backbone of this economy on alternative energy.
    Hell, studies indicate that simply charging electric cars at the end of the day would bring down the grid.

    The “multiple sources of energy” simply don’t even show up in the statistical noise when it comes to producing the energy this country needs to run it’s industrial infrastructure….stuff like refineries, steel and Aluminum mills.
    I simply figured you understood that….. that’s all.

    As i see it the debate boils down to the viability of the US as the leading world power, politically and industrially. So, addressing strategies that don’t offer a viable solution are a waste of time and put the country at risk. ( that’s the way i see it)

    RE:
    “…OK, history boy, what happened to Goliath?…”

    Look, trying to tease history out of biblical stories is a waste of time (IMHO) i’m not into religious dogma.

    Yes, as a “history boy” i’m a pragmatist, which means i don’t see the wold as a perfect place.
    It would be “smart” to recognize that recorded history shows a continuing attack on the US from without and within.

    – Supporting the Shae of Iran was smart (but Jimmy Carter fucked that up),
    – Global human intelligence networks were smart (but the Church Commissions fucked that up).
    – Joe McCarthy was right about the Communists in the State Department (but the Liberals fucked that up).

    Apparently, just spending money in Iraq doesn’t seem to work.
    However, spending the money and kicking ass in Iraq does seems to work.
    Is that smart……???

    (this is great ….God help me but i love it so………. 🙂
    -nicker-

  17. 17 hoyt May 28th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    Nicker:
    “Iran couldn’t be a better example. Here are a people who are smart. Hell, they have a space program for Chrits-sake!
    Yet they the Islamist are running the country.”

    Parallels can be drawn to many nations….smart people being “governed” by inept idealogues made possible by the masses of dumb people whose apathy & inability to think for themselves instead of the politically-charged “news” corporations thinking for them.

    Nicker:
    “But my point is that we simply can’t run the heavy industry that is the backbone of this economy on alternative energy.
    Hell, studies indicate that simply charging electric cars at the end of the day would bring down the grid….”

    One can easily argue that is a prime reason to use other sources of power generated in a de-centralized paradigm….e.g. a household is not a refinery, it does not need huge amounts of power, & it can create its own power in certain areas (solar all along large portions of the southern States, wind in the upper plains, etc.) I am not suggesting these homes are expected to use solar or wind 100% of the time. I am stating there is good reason to get the “sunshine” state off of the grid by x %. Floridians crank the ac 10 months of the year, yet, how little do you see solar being used?

    Why not supplement the grid by: 1. not using it as much and 2. sell your surplus to the grid?

    Nicker:
    “The “multiple sources of energy” simply don’t even show up in the statistical noise when it comes to producing the energy this country needs to run it’s industrial infrastructure….stuff like refineries, steel and Aluminum mills.
    I simply figured you understood that….. that’s all. ”

    I understand and agree about the heavy industries…that’s why I am suggesting a more balanced approach. Use alternative sources where those sources are reliable x % of the time for applications such as households, retail, schools, etc.

    Belive it or not, there are increasingly number of people in certain areas of the country that do not have a utility bill. Sure, they have the initial cost of the solar panels and the maintenance cost associated, but they are addressing your concerns of grid capacity. Plus, with oil and natural gas prices, the cost of those homes is increasing over the life of the home where solar costs should be more within a homeowner’s control. In addition, as this “new” technology becomes more prevelant, the cost will right itself with more competition. Yes, it is “new” considering the new solar technology being produced (no more panels….see Popular Science’s Innovation of the Year Award winner – Nanosolar http://www.nanosolar.com/)

    Nicker:
    “As i see it the debate boils down to the viability of the US as the leading world power, politically and industrially. So, addressing strategies that don’t offer a viable solution are a waste of time and put the country at risk. ”

    Millions of Households generating their own power x % of the time is viable and will make us stronger. Technology Review (published by MIT) ran a special advertising section on Spain’s use of wind power. Nearly 10% of Spain’s power supply in 2007 came from wind. I believe multiple sources of renewable power sources are viable when used in a collaborative and supplemental effort to the existing paradigm. There is proof even among the relatively infant stages of this technology. Again, with modern materials and production, wind and solar harnessing can be viewed as “new”.

    Nicker:
    “Look, trying to tease history out of biblical stories is a waste of time (IMHO) i’m not into religious dogma.”

    I was making a light-hearted reference to your “history lesson” earlier in your above posts, while at the same time pointing out that it is not good enough today to just say, “kick some ass”. We have to kick some ass and be much smarter at doing it. Refer to my comment about the staggering irony of al queda’s improbable plan that they were able to execute. They found other ways to attack the Pentagon without an airforce. Re-read that out loud: “al queda found ways to attack the PENTAGON without an airforce.”

    We are smarter than them and we have a better arsenal (understatement of the year), yet we are mired in this Iraq mess for how long and how much money? Why? Bush and his administration are incompetent, inept, unimaginative, fools behind the times. It is not a stretch of the imagination to see parallels between the march to Baghdad and the practice of British red coats marching in their battles playing trumpets. The terrorists either helped bin laden further burrow away in his hole or they went to “training camp” in Iraq after the “Mission Accomplished” dust settled.

    Nicker:
    “However, spending the money and kicking ass in Iraq does seems to work.”

    That is not confirmed, especially considering Afghanistan is still a mess. Unless you think McCain walked down a Baghdad street by himself making friends with the locals. Sure he didn’t severly alter our troops’ mission for a political stunt.

    Nicker:
    “Joe McCarthy was right about the Communists in the State Department ”

    H-O-L-Y shit.

  18. 18 hoyt May 28th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

    in case my sarcasm didn’t come through on this comment:

    “Sure he didn’t severly alter our troops’ mission for a political stunt.”

    I was being very sarcastic.

    I’d like to hear the details of what that stunt took to pull off at the expense of other missions our troops could have done instead. (plus the tax payer’s money)

  19. 19 Nicker May 30th, 2008 at 2:49 am

    Right, le-me-se if i understand your position:
    -1- Fundamentalist Islamic dictators are like any other dictators.
    -2- US needs a “more balanced approach: “don’t use too much” and we each sell our solar-panel output.
    -3- You agree that Industry needs more than Green alternatives can provide.
    -4- Alternative sources where for applications such as households retail, schools, etc.
    -5- Alternate sources are “Millions of Households generating their own power” reliably, “x % of the time”
    -6- we are mired in this Iraq mess because Bush&co. are “incompetent, inept, unimaginative, fools behind the times”
    -7- US in Baghdad is like British red coats marching in their battles playing trumpets.
    -8- Terrorists are smarter because they helped bin laden further burrow away in his hole
    -9- Bush started a war as a “political stunt” and declared “Mission Accomplished” too early.
    -10- Reverting back to offensive violence in Iraq may not have worked because McCaine couldn’t walk about freely.
    -11- Historic attempts by foreigners in the US to subvert our government are irrelevant today.
    -12- Your very sure [per sarcasm] that our “troops’ mission [in Iraq is] a political stunt.”
    -13- And….the $s spent in Iraq was spent “at the expense of other missions
    our troops could have done instead. (plus the tax payer’s money)”

    OK, well let me just say this about all that:
    Sorry, i don’t see any “…Parallels…” between other despots and Islamic Dictators.
    Islam is a civilization who:
    – strap bombs to their children,
    – makes their children walk through mine fields to clear them for “freedom fighters”,
    – mutilate their women’s genitals,
    – are actively subverting many other countries to expressly enslave the rest of world,
    – and who do all this in the name of God……????
    A parallel…..??? Give me a fucking break….!!!

    Like it or not, we are in the throws of the 3rd world war. It was started many years ago.
    The basis of our war on terror has nothing to do with oil. It is about a clash of civilizations.
    Americans simply refuse to recognize the Global Islamic threat, just as they refused to recognize Hitler’s threat.
    Could it be that Bush, just like FDR, created a “work-around/lend-lease/lie”…..???
    As you say, Bush may be “incompetent, inept, unimaginative, fools”….?
    Being a “history boy”…I’ll let History make that call….. 🙂

    Regarding energy;
    Even if “Millions of Households [were] generating their own power” to cover their local use “x % of the time,”
    that won’t cover “there individual power footprints.”
    Since we’re all on the Internet, le-me give ya an small example in that context:
    Just the average a “Second Life” avitar requires 153 KW/hours for the host server. Then there’s the 1,095 KWh for
    the client PC. In terms of your “green footprint” that’s like driving 1,800 miles in a BMW 750Li.

    Anyone who wants “Green alternatives” to fix the US energy problem can let Al Gore and friends sell them a
    “home energy offset” for $27.70/yr. He’ll use the money to build wind farms and manure-fueled-generators.
    I could be wrong, but that strategy seems about as viable an Energy Policy as plugging boat toilets
    was for cleaning up San Francisco Bay.

    I’ll stand by my original position, green alternatives don’t solve the US industrial
    energy problem. Only Nuclear power does that, and when implemented Nuclear will obviate green alternatives.

    Don’t miss understand me on this, i’m certainly not against “Millions of Households generating their own power,
    x % of the time.” However, i believe using alternatives should be a personal choice. The same goes for how much
    you eat and where you set your thermostat.

    So, how does all this relate to the original thread…?
    Simple, i made an assertion that one of the reason there are so few welders is that our educational system
    is run by people who don’t value and could care less about industrial arts. Our schools have gradually under
    gone a metamorphosis to where schools are now more involved with the type of intellectual endeavors which lend
    themselves to global social engineering which is intended to institute Utopian ideals. And the Historic basis
    for my assertion is well documented in the reading list i gave Chris.

    Apparently Al Gore’s unfinished stint in the seminary somehow qualifies him as an atmospheric Scientist.
    Yes, Global Climate issues, Global Energy, Global Water Issues, and Global Health care issues certainly pose
    challenges (-BTW- the newest one is global noise pollution, i kid you not, “Biophony”). Green Cross International
    is run by Gorbachev who took out his 401c3 papers in California before the fall of Soviet Union.

    Sorry, i’m simply not going to jump through any hoops because Al Gore and his friends think “the answer” to any of
    the worlds problems involves forcing me to lower my standard of living.

    There is no sarcasm intended or implied in any thing i’ve said.
    I’m as serious as a heart attack.
    In my humble opinion (IMHO) the political correctness that has created today’s socio-economic problems doesn’t
    require any contrition or mitigation on my part.

    As long as i can buy metal, i’m gonna weld it, because i like to build stuff…….. 🙂
    As long as i can afford to go to dinner, i’m gonna eat what i want, because it tastes good………. 🙂
    As long as i can afford my utility bill i’m gonna set the thermostat where i’m comfortable….. 🙂
    And as long as i can afford to buy gas i’m gonna burn it in what i want to ride….. 🙂

    -nicker-

  20. 20 hoyt Jun 2nd, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    My position & several rebuttals to your rambling is stated very clearly above.

    Citing excerpts of previous posts is not stating your understanding of my position clearly at all…..

    -1- Fundamentalist Islamic dictators are like any other dictators. – Where did I say this? I eluded to part of this because there are people all over the world forcing their agendas upon others…..look at Rod Parsley’s agenda – it is not worship. He uses 9/11 to “prey” (get it? pray/prey) on the well known “easy-in” American fears, while pocketing their cash.

    You rant and rant in generalized fashion about Islam as a whole. Christians with their Crusades have in the past plundered many innocent lives for years yet do you classify all christians by that history?

    I merely called you on your generalizations

    -4- Alternative sources where for applications such as households retail, schools, etc.

    I was pointing out that is a great first start.

    -5- Alternate sources are “Millions of Households generating their own power” reliably, “x % of the time”

    Not sure what your fragmented copy is suggesting here, but if you have a problem with millions of households generating their own power from sources such as the sun and wind then you are contradicting yourself because this power means there will be more capacity that the heavy industry can use to maintain “industrial power” status (regardless if the heavy mills are making their own power). Although you stated you are not against households generating their own power, you earlier tried to point out that alternative energy is not viable because it cannot be used in heavy industry. I suggested that alt energy when used appropriately with current capabilities will help the current paradigm with the demands the heavy industry puts on it. I did not say anything about mandating such use…it should be one’s own decision.

    -6- we are mired in this Iraq mess because Bush&co. are “incompetent, inept, unimaginative, fools behind the times”

    Yes, the Army War College (among several others) has been vocal about the strategic blunders about this invasion a long time ago.

    -7- US in Baghdad is like British red coats marching in their battles playing trumpets.

    I’m pointing out that the strength of the US military is not being used in the best way, especially against a guerilla-type warfare. This is not new Nicker.

    -8- Terrorists are smarter because they helped bin laden further burrow away in his hole

    This has been said twice before in the posts above, if you want to try to make something offensive by stating terrorists are “smarter” out of context, then go ahead. The reality is that terrorists DID attack the Pentagon without an airforce and they continue to take a country like the US through a guerilla warfare over 6+ years and over a half TRILLION dollars is debt. Compare the costs (human, economic, etc.) and there is little doubt we can fight a better battle/war than what Bush/Cheney/Bumsfeld are “leading” us through. Might is not the sole factor to success.

    -10- Reverting back to offensive violence in Iraq may not have worked because McCaine couldn’t walk about freely.

    Where the fuck did I say this?

    -11- Historic attempts by foreigners in the US to subvert our government are irrelevant today.

    Where did I say this?

    -12- Your very sure [per sarcasm] that our “troops’ mission [in Iraq is] a political stunt.”

    Where did I say that?

    -13- And….the $s spent in Iraq was spent “at the expense of other missions

    Did bin Laden launch the attacks on 9/11 from within Afghanistan ? Is Afghanistan a nation substantially free of the Taliban and al queda 7 years later?

    Nicker:

    “So, how does all this relate to the original thread…?
    Simple, i made an assertion that one of the reason there are so few welders is that our educational system
    is run by people who don’t value and could care less about industrial arts. Our schools have gradually under
    gone a metamorphosis to where schools are now more involved with the type of intellectual endeavors which lend
    themselves to global social engineering…”

    quote from the original post source:

    ‘ The survey contended that one of the reasons the US emerged as a world economic super power following World War 1 was the implementation of compulsory secondary education. As the world’s economy has developed, the study says, so too has the need to increase the skill sets of today’s young adults beyond just secondary education…’

    Nicker states:
    “OK, so, is this one more instance of an unintended negative consequences of a national Progressive liberal agenda?

    Where “every child must go to college” because intellectual pursuits are far superior to working with your hands….?”

    then later….
    “So, once again we are supposed to pay for the “government” to fix a progressive screw up.”

    Those are sweeping generalizations: “liberals” own the agenda that mandates every child must go to college ?

    whatever.

    I agree that the educational system has not “marketed” and supported vocational, trade programs and technical colleges as much as it should (not by a long shot).

    There definitely needs to be more funding for vocational education at the junior & high school levels and trade college levels, but blaming the need for this turnaround on liberals is running wide, just like your other generalizations. “- Joe McCarthy was right about the Communists in the State Department (but the Liberals fucked that up).”

    That one is a gem.

  21. 21 Nicker Jun 3rd, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    Right, well:

    RE:
    “….not stating your understanding of my position clearly at all…”

    Apparently i didn’t understand your point. And may be there in lies the confusion.
    And that’s why made that list..

    So, having said that:
    RE:
    “… You rant and rant in generalized fashion about Islam as a whole….”
    “… Christians with their Crusades have in the past plundered many innocent lives for years yet do you classify all Christians by that history?…”
    “…I merely called you on your generalizations….”

    Well, i guess ya can call “rant in generalized fashion.” It’s a way of learns lessons from History that can be applied to contemporary times. And so, i’m guessing not only Christianity,but also other religions have “plundered…for years.”

    The Historic point relative to today is that Christianity undertook a reformation which relegated the extremists to the fringe. But In the case of Islam those who were working to toward a reformation have been systematically murdered, Moreover, that Islamic fringe element controls that religion, world wide.

    Moreover, with the help our (Bush’s) “Saudi Friends” Islam is financing a global front. The US military is already involved in dealing with them in the PI and in Africa (and probably other places we don’t know about). And there in is the history lesson the Bush administration and many others ignore because of political or humanist reasons. They all think that Islam is just another of the “Great Religions.”

    I’m not particularly religious, so i don’t have a dog in the “dogma fight”……. :-).
    However, as you noted, i am a “history boy” and from that perspective i’d just as soon see us implement an immigration policy that screens out Muslims. That’s a policy Europe implemented for 900 years and one that many European nations currently wish the had never been abandoned.

    RE:
    “… Although you stated you are not against households generating their own power, you earlier tried to point out that alternative energy is not viable because it cannot be used in heavy industry. I suggested that alt energy when used appropriately with current capabilities will help the current paradigm with the demands the heavy industry puts on it. I did not say anything about mandating such use……. it should be one’s own decision…”

    Sound like we agree that “it should be one’s own decision” to use alt energy. The point of contention is still about how much it will help the country become energy independent.

    My point is that until we implement an industrial strength strategy Nuks and Hydrogen, all that other stuff is simply in the statistical noise. Hence the choice for the individual should be based on family finances not on national energy policy.

    The way i see it, If we don’t go to Nuks and Hydrogen, House holds putting up Solar panels would be like the passengers of the Titanic trying to stop that sinking with a bucket brigade.

    RE:
    “…I agree that the educational system has not “marketed” and supported vocational, trade programs and technical colleges as much as it should (not by a long shot)…”

    Ya, so we agree on the symptom, but apparently not the cause.
    My point is that it isn’t a money problem, its a philosophical problem.
    Our existing expenditures on education are high enough to cover an excellent education. The problem is how the resources are allocated.

    The Liberals and leftist in this country have used certain American institutions as their exclusive playground for decades. The state Department and “American Free School System” (going back to Dewey) are primary examples. These are historic facts that still are relevant today. Hence my references to Socialists.

    Some references:
    Mangers of Virtue -Tyack & Hansot
    Fourth World War, Deplomacy and Espionage in the Age of Terrorism” – De Marenches & Andelman
    Tenured Radicals – Kimball

    There was an interesting article in the Contra Costa Times (may 22) about the lack of Women in the trades. The article fell just short of actually blaming Sexual Discrimination on this short fall. Interestingly enough, it directly blamed the lack of technical education on the 1970’s when “….these programs fell out of vogue with students in the state and the nation…”
    And as a result the “…we [now] need infrastructure folks who can weld…”

    What….? All of a sudden the kids in this country decided they didn’t like shop classes….?
    I don’t think so…!

    They had lots of help from the leftists in trenched in the school systems at every level. The stuff i’ve read indicates that our school system has been at the heart of social engineering since it’s inception. But where initially the American Free School System was intended to better prepare people to be citizens of a democratic society it was later taken over by those who would us it to promote a more Utopian social agenda (re. Dewey).

    Now i’m just old enough to remember our HS (CoCo county Acalanes school district) government instructor bringing in one outside speaker in my senior year. And that guy came into our class room expressly to talk to us about how good Socialism was. Funny thing, no other speakers were allowed in. ………..

    So, recently, in a local school they had their grade schoolers dressing their kids up in Islamic Garb, taking on Islamic names…… all in an effort to “learn about Islam”.
    And we have kids who are being taught that polar Bears are drowning because America is an industrial power.

    So why take a shop class…. ???
    Why learn to weld…???
    Why would anyone want build or ride a motorcycle ….. ???

    Now if all this seems like a rambling rant it’s probably because there is so much stuff that is (cause and effect) related, but isn’t intuitively obvious. And i’m simply not smart enough to present it concisely.

    Well, i know i didn’t cover all your comments but that’s all the time i have right now.
    I’m in the middle of packing up for the annual road trip.
    It’s off on a ride to Glacier National Park.
    See ya in a week or so.

    -nicker-

  22. 22 Clyn Jun 9th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    I am a woman that welds…. MIG TIG ARC….?

  23. 23 Lindsay Mar 22nd, 2010 at 7:11 pm

    You know what’s funny? I hear about this welder shortage as well, I graduated with a welding C ticket, and a metal fabricating ticket 2 years ago, and I cannot find work!!! Nobody is hiring, I am looking for a job ANYWHERE!!

  24. 24 Ginger Jun 13th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    this is one working woman welder, and since i started two years ago havent had any real trouble finding work.

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