July 1st. Florida Motorcycle Safety Course Is Mandatory

Starting today July 1st, those who plan to obtain a motorcycle license in Florida regardless of their age and experience, will have to take a basic rider course through the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles. The course must be taken before a rider can have the motorcycle endorsement added to his driver’s license. After the course, the teacher will transmit the results electronically to the state then contact the rider to apply to the nearest driver license office for the endorsement. There is also a number to find a test site (850) 488- 3286 and the Web site is: http://motorcycles.hsmv.state.fl.us. Florida still allows a person, 21 or older, to ride a motorcycle without a helmet if they carry proof of an insurance policy providing for at least $10,000 in medical benefits for injuries incurred as a result of a crash on a motorcycle. Those under 21 operating motorcycles, or riding as a passenger, must wear a Department approved motorcycle helmet. And anyone operating a motorcycle must wear eye protection.

85 Responses to “July 1st. Florida Motorcycle Safety Course Is Mandatory”

  1. 1 Doug Cahn Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:57 am

    If you are in the Naples-Ft. Myers area I highly recommend Naples Motorcycle Riding School.
    Brooke runs a Great school and has 2 locations in the area. He can be reached at 239-495-5749
    or at naplesriding@comcast.net.
    Yes I am the guy who partnered with Kim Suter and have been left holding the bag.
    Life goes on and we are moving forward. Of course I will honor the warranties out of my pocket, it’s the right thing to do!!!

  2. 2 Jeff Nicklus Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:24 pm


    Honoring the warranties out of your own pocket is a stand up thing to do. Maybe this industry is returning to the time when a persons word was his bond! Good for your brother!

    As for Florida requiring a Rider Safety Course before licensing ….. all I can say is: I wish Texas would follow suit.

    Jeff Nicklus
    Desperado Motorcycles

  3. 3 Mike Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    This should be the mandatory, there are a lot of people out there riding that shouldn’t be.

  4. 4 burnout Jul 1st, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    I agree with Mike that many people riding shouldnt be. I have always shook my head at the number of “riders” who do not have a motorcycle endorsement. Lately I am finding NON RIDERS with a motorcycle designation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! somebody help us………….please! peace ps dragged the old Vespa out of the weeds………………… got a thousand bucks for it!

  5. 5 Nicker Jul 1st, 2008 at 9:28 pm


    An original, running Vespa is going for more than $1k in these parts.
    And i reccon the price goes up with more options like the front fender luggage rack.
    (don’t really know why…???)


  6. 6 Rogue Jul 2nd, 2008 at 8:33 am

    While this may sound like a good law when first looking at it Do Not be Fooled By It.
    This law was pushed through the legislature by those running the For Profit rider courses. These courses now charge a average of $300.00 per class.
    These courses are not run by the state with the money that is added to every license and registeration issued. It should also be noted that the licensing fees are being raised again this year and we are being told the money will go towards education while no one has explained what has happened to the money already been collected.
    If the Motorcycle Rider Courses are about safety and not just making money ,Why are they not free from motorcycle manufactuers?
    Okay stop and think about this. These courses are part of the MSF – Motorcycle Safety Foundation which is sponsored by the manufactuers and others. To the best of my knowledge this is the only industry that makes a product and wants to make it mandatory you pay to learn how to operate it..
    The motorcycles used in the courses are usually of the smaller variety and the reasoning is acceptable, though many of those taking the course will actually riding a much larger motorcycle. Now the agency that just took your money notifies the Motor Vehicle Department you have passed their course.
    The problem with this is that the agency issuing the actual license is not doing the testing and many of those that complete the course can not pass the test on the motorcycle they are going to be riding.
    Though I do believe that most people benefit by attending one of these schools I feel that it is still the Responsibility of the Agency Issuing The License to do the actual Testing. Also it forces indivuals that could pass the state test to pay what equals extortion.
    It should be noted that there is already talk of now passing a law that would make it Mandatory to go back to school every so many years to keep your license. Oh Yes these are the ones you have to pay for as well.
    We do realize that many people operating motorcycles do not have the proper endorsement. That is a law enforcement issue and though there is talk of inforcing it we will have to wait and see..
    It should also be noted that this law is prejudical to motorcyclist as there is no similar law for the operators of other types of vehicles.
    I respectfully request that you do not approve of laws that make things Mandatory for us as indivuals. Each one of us have different circumstances and should be able to make our own decisions on what is right and wrong for us.
    With that also comes the Responsibility For Those Decisions – Right or Wrong.

  7. 7 Slag Jul 2nd, 2008 at 11:18 am

    Thank you Rouge for stating the truth about this issue.

  8. 8 Slag Jul 2nd, 2008 at 11:34 am

    For Jeff Nicklus in Tx. You being a manufacturer your self. How do you feel about the comment in Rouge’s statement on Safety Courses Being Made Mandatory ?

    If the Motorcycle Rider Courses are about safety and not just making money ,Why are they not free from motorcycle manufactuers?

    I am talking about adding the cost of the course to the bike purchased either.

  9. 9 Slag Jul 2nd, 2008 at 12:39 pm

    Sorry I left out the (not) in above comment.

  10. 10 Jeff Nicklus Jul 2nd, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    First let me say that a Desperado Motorcycle is not intended to be ridden by a novice rider. We only build high performance motorcycles. With that said I will tell you that we have contracts with our dealers that prohibit the sale of a Desperado Motorcycle to anyone who does not have a motorcycle endorsement on their license at the time of the sale. The reasons for this rule are many, but primarily we are making a good faith effort to avoid any product liability claims in a Wrongful Death Suit because we sold someone a motorcycle that they could not handle, especially once they got all drunked up and drive it into a telephone pole at 120 MPH.

    Secondly I would be happy to participate in a program that we could pay for a Rider Safety Course for anyone who purchased a Desperado Motorcycle. I really could care less in helping get a license for someone who is not buying a Desperado, nor could I be expected to.

    I personally have been riding motorcycles for 46 years and I consider myself to be very proficient in handling a motorcycle. With that said I will tell you that I still take a refresher Rider Safety Course, that I pay for myself, about every 4-5 years. I also learn things “again” that I had forgotten every time I take the course. Even with that, that did not keep me from being involved in a motorcycle accident at the first of the year ….. an accident that I was seriously injured in and one that I was not at fault.

    Thirdly, Nothing is FREE, NOTHING. If we or Harley or any manufacturer were to furnish a Rider Safety Course you can bet the cost of that would be added to the cost of the motorcycle. After all this is a business and not a charity. Question: Do the car companies pay for a drivers course so you can get a drivers license? So why should it be any different with a motorcycle Safety Course.

    Trust me I don’t like the Government or anyone else telling me what I have to do so I can appreciate where you are coming from but the bottom line is that the law is the law and in this case I believe it is a good law.

    Jeff Nicklus
    Desperado Motorcycles

  11. 11 Nicker Jul 2nd, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    Ask a lawyer if the offering of a “Riding School” affords the “student” an “implied warranty” against accidents.

    Would “deep pockets” like manufacturers who supports schools make a fat target…..???

    “… i took your class, but i still wrecked my bike…”

    Just a thought

  12. 12 Jeff Nicklus Jul 2nd, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    Manufacturers make fat targets anytime whether they support schools or not. Let me say these words to a lawyer: DUE DILIGENCE.

  13. 13 Rogue Jul 2nd, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    I have nothing against the schools and think that most people do benefit from them.
    What I am against is them being made mandatory.
    Especially by lobbiest for the MSF that are funded by the major manufactuers.

  14. 14 Rogue Jul 2nd, 2008 at 5:47 pm

    The state of Florida has been collecting money for many years from registerations and licensing that was to be used for education.
    Why is the state not running afforadable schools with that money?
    Why are schools only mandatory for motorcyclist and not other types of vehicles?

  15. 15 Jeff Nicklus Jul 2nd, 2008 at 6:04 pm


    I understand and I couldn’t agree more. The fact of the matter is that, at least in Texas, it is difficult to get a drivers license without attending a privately owned and operated Drivers Education School.

    When both of my kids were in High School we had to send them to a driving school just to get them a driver’s license. While the school is not “absolutely” mandatory, a parent with a good driver’s license can still assume the liability and teach their children to drive, it is most widely accepted that the independent driving school is the way to go.

    I see this same thing happening with the motorcycle license and Rider Safety School. Also, I believe that even if a person were not to pay much attention during the class they would still come out the back end of the class a safer rider. I have also seen riders who have taken the course decide that motorcycle riding is not for them ….. isn’t that better determined during the course than on the street when the idiot kills himself or someone else.

    Just one more thought and I am done with this subject. Have you ever seen a program that the government runs that either runs effectively or efficiently? Hence privately operated Rider safety Courses!

    Just my thoughts on the subject.

  16. 16 Walt Lumpkin Jul 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 am

    Rogue and Jeff: You both make valid points. I took the MSF course in Georgia back in 2001 to “get legal”. The cost was $50 for the Basic Riders Course. Very reasonable. Today the cost is $250.
    Still not a great amount of money if you are buying a $15-20k vehicle.

    I am a firm believer in rider training especially since I saw two guys in my class that had never riden a motorcycle or a manual transmission vehicle complete the class with some degree of proficiency. One of them was doing figure 8’s in the box better than me.

    But I too have a negative attitude toward the nanny state government legislating personal safety to me. I was wearing seatbelts before they were mandatory even when we only had lap belts in the olden days. I don’t have a problem with Darwinism.

    If money is being collected for the express purpose of rider education and is being siphoned off for some other use (typical political operation) then the parties responsible should be drawn and quartered figuratively in public.

    And lastly, why are big rig drivers required to pass a proficiency test for their CDL and now motorcyclyst required to do the same for the MC endorsement but the largest number of drivers who drive cars and pickup trucks are not?

    If my statistical memory serves (too lazy to research) aren’t approximately 50% of m/c accidents caused by drivers of cars and trucks?

  17. 17 burnout Jul 3rd, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    My highly controversial opinion is that ALL crashes are preventable! The times I find myself threatened are when I simply don’t pay attention to everything around me. The last rider killed here was sitting at a traffic light and hit from the side. Terrible. I, rather, WE need to expect the worse. I have seen a few people that realized during a riders course that they really did’nt want to be a bike rider after all. Now if I could convince some of these others out there…………. And the older I get the less Common Sense I encounter among ALL drivers peace

  18. 18 Rainbow Warrior Jul 3rd, 2008 at 10:15 pm

    I think this is most likely a good law. So many people are buying bikes now to save $ on gasoline and it sure can’t hurt a novice.

  19. 19 Mike Greenwald Jul 4th, 2008 at 8:07 am

    It is Independence Day. This is a Dependence Law. Seems appropriate enough that I point out the obvious that this law contradicts this and the basic tenets of Liberty and Freedom on many levels.

    This law is wrong and it sucks to have to fight it. This law is wrong because it forces more corruption in government as being “the law is the law” type of thinking and enables a further corruption of the USA.

    For the government to think that inadequate education at best is in the best interest of the citizen, is in itself criminal behavior.

    My time in service for this country was not for stupid, asinine laws like this.

    Walt Lumpkin, did you flunk your vision test?

    Rainbow Warrior, yes this parking lot training leading to a test waiver can hurt a novice and does.

    Burnout, you are correct, crashes are preventable.

    Jeff Nicklus, I understand the spirit of your post and I agree with the independent schooling. I will add to your comment by saying that the MSF courses that are most widely available to the public are not really private schools. The MSF is a lobbying and marketing group for the MIC. The MSF is in bed with NHTSA and that is evident with the amount of times they share sites with the government. This is not a good thing and does not produce good riders. The MSF training does not make a rider out of a newbie. The waiver of test afforded to a newbie for passing the course is the fallacious stamp of approval for the consumer to believe that they can ride a motorcycle and are prepared to mix it up in traffic.

    It would seem that many respondents to this feel that education of anyone wishing to operate a motor vehicle on the roads is a good thing. I do not think that is the issue here unless we are talking about equality under the law. The issue here is the the waiver of test by the government. The background issue is the level of skill that the educational course provides.

    What it comes down to is this. You cant teach a person to ride through cones in a parking lot and watch movies in a classroom and expect that they will perform well in the real world in real traffic conditions.

    Some of us were fortunate enough to learn from mentors and friends in a time when it was not necessary to be tested or trained formally.

    Just as a person cannot purchase enough accouterments to be a biker, the license need not become a facade of skill nor a dumbed down process for everybody to ride a motorcycle.

    Too many riders die that have been “trained” under this program whether there has been a law or not. Too many riders die expecting that operators of other vehicles have the same perceptions available while riding a motorcycle.

    Possibly, all motorists in all vehicles should be required to take this training to ensure that equality is maintained in the pursuit of freedom and liberty.

  20. 20 Walt Lumpkin Jul 4th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    Greewald: Your rant seems to indicate you are not for training of any drivers, mandated or not. You seem to think that having a “mentor” that has no teaching skills or curriculm is superior to the classroom and trained instructors.

    What if the “mentor” has bad habits and a lack of personal skills? I have a friend that rode for
    30 years before he decided it was best if he had an endorsement on his license. He failed the
    simple rear brake lockup AND the swerve test twice at the DMV before he passed. He was not a better rider just because the DMV administered the test.

    From your response above I assume you have never entered much less completed a rider training course. The waiver of the riding test to get your m/c endorsement from the DMV only means the students have more training and good habits than my friend. I can drive a Richard Petty Driving Experience car around the track at 140+mph but that in no way means I am qualified to race with the NASCAR drivers in a race. It takes seat time to be proficient in/on any vehicle.

    Based on my experience I could observe you and 5 other stangers who completed the MSF course and I assure you I could pick you out of the pack simply by the way you ride, again assuming you have never taken the BRC. The difference is that obvious.

    I think I detected that you served in the military. I am doing a lot of assuming with you but would you advocate civilians be issued a weapon and a bandolier, have a hunting buddy train them and then tell them to go defend our country without any training in weapons and tactics? I hope not.

    And I wish you would re-read my previous post.
    1. I do not support the legislation.
    2. I do not have a problem with Darwin’s theory.
    3. I do not want the government to protect me from myself.
    4. My eyesight is 20/20. My hindsight is even better. And my insight is profound.

    MIke, I appreciate your passion but stop, take a breath and think.

  21. 21 Mike Greenwald Jul 4th, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    Guess you should not put the ASS in assume.

    I am against the ersatz training rather than real training.

    I have learned plenty about riding from all sorts of instructors and courses including track days. Learning about riding techniques and practicing them possibly are the single most important thing I have done to stay alive on a motorcycle.

    Yeah, you could pick me out from 4 others that have taken the BRC. The difference is that obvious.

  22. 22 jspfc Jul 4th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    I think the course is good for anyone riding. As has been stated, a lot of people learned to ride either through experiences or from someone showing them and what they learned and practice isn’t always right.

    The point of the class is to show you what to do in certain situations, it is up to the student to practice them after the class is over and they will hopefully become more of an instinct when riding.

  23. 23 Mike Greenwald Jul 4th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    The point of the class is not necessarily what the class delivers. When the class is run ultimately by a marketing and lobbying firm, it delivers customers for the manufacturers.

  24. 24 jspfc Jul 4th, 2008 at 6:30 pm

    Well when I took the class, there were no products or companies pushed on me. So if they are lobbying to have us take these classes to purchase their products, they are getting ripped off. Maybe they should save their money and decrease the price of their products.

  25. 25 Nicker Jul 6th, 2008 at 2:06 am



    Well, i’d prefer that to apply to the rider.

    No one forces ya to buy a scooter.

    Seems there are tow issues that the new rider has to tackle.
    -1- A viable strategy to deal with what goes on around ya on the road.
    -2- The mechanics of how to manage a moving bike.

    So, Maybe classes will get ya some of the first. Don’t know, never taken one (may be i should?).
    But those who have, have never told of being taught that dinner time is when critter migrate down to the water and not a good time to blast through “Elk Ridge” or “Deer Creek.” And no one ever told of being warned that on a 100 degree Labor Day, the most danger your gonna run into will likely be antyfreez flowing from overheated holiday traffic. Perhaps that’s the sort of stuff you’re supposed to pick up by doing or listening(???).

    Secondly, unless ya pay some one like Keithe Code or Jason Pridmore to show ya how to picking up a sliding front wheel, the first oily off-ramp is gonna be costly, no matter how long ya spend riding around cones in a parking lot.

    So, Due Diligence:
    IMHO includes getting a dirt bike and learning to rid unpaved fire roads at speed. There simply isn’t a better way to learn what a bike will and won’t do. Around here some top AMA riders will take a dirt bike out on one of the small local tracks for a good flog before racing at Sears Point. Could there be a reason for that…???.

    Classes…. OK, but how confident are ya when ya get caught in a snow storm, or go sideways on an off-ramp…???

    The decision is up to the individual, not the fucking Government.
    There are no short cuts to safe riding. You want safe….. take up golf.


  26. 26 Mike Greenwald Jul 6th, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    You, sir, have expressed an achieved wisdom with motorcycling.

  27. 27 rc Jul 6th, 2008 at 11:34 pm

    Effectiveness of Motorcycle Training and Motorcyclists’ Risk-Taking Behavior
    Accession Number: 01044883
    Record Type: Component

    Which states in the preface:

    Persistent increases in motorcycle fatalities and injuries in recent years have heightened safety awareness and have focused attention on the role that motorcyclist training and education can play in reducing accident rates. In this study a 2005 sample of Indiana motorcyclists was used to estimate statistical models of the effectiveness of existing training programs in reducing accident probabilities. Statistical models relating to motorcyclist speed choice and helmet usage behavior were also estimated. The findings showed that those individuals who took beginning rider training courses were more likely to be involved in an accident than those who did not and that those who took the beginning course more than once were much more likely to be involved in an accident. Although explanations for these findings can range from the use of ineffective course material to changes in risk perception as a result of taking the course, another explanation is that riders who take the course are inherently less skilled than those who do not. The findings underscore the need for a careful and comprehensive study of rider skills and risk perceptions to maximize the effectiveness of motorcycle training courses.

    You can get the whole gig by paying $25 or go to Wendy Moons site and see her dissection of the information and some of comments such as:

    “The most interesting finding was that the Motorcycle Safety Foundation’s Basic RiderCourse was “found to be significant with three variables in the accident model” of the study. The first finding was that those who took the BRC Basic Rider Course) were 44% more likely to be involved in a crash while those who said they had no need to take the course were 51% less likely to be crash-involved.”

    “The second finding was that those who took the BRC multiple times were 180% more likely to be crash-involved. Iow, a higher probability to be involved in an annual crash than those who drink and ride, go over 100 mph, or refuse to wear a helmet. ”

    “Worse yet, while those who took the BRC for the first time and those who took it multiple times were the same average age (45 yrs old), those who took it multiple times had an average of 12 more years of riding experience.”

    “However, the study found that there was absolutely no effect either positive or negative in terms of crash involvement for the 12% who had taken the Motorcycle Safety Foundation’s ERC.”

    “Iow, rather than produce safer riders on the road, yet another study finds that M$F’s curriculum is correlated with higher crash-involvement rather than safer riders on the road.”

    “What should concern rider educators, the motorcycling safety community and riders in general is simple—what is supposed to make us safe may put us more at risk:”

    “The untrained rider is less likely to be wearing a helmet but 51% less likely to be in a crash while the trained rider—who is more likely to be wearing a helmet—is 44% more likely to be in a crash. Whether this is risk compensation at work is unknown, but there does appear to be a dual offset; two safety factors—helmet and training—correlate with higher crash-involvement. ”

    “This throws a different light on DOT Secretary “A Helmet Saved My Life” Peters’ experience: it could very well be that had she not taken the course and not worn the helmet, she may never have been in the crash in the first place.”

    ” To sum up so far:
    * M$F has prevented any other curriculum from being used in the USA—therefore mandatory training solidifies M$F’s monopoly.
    * M$F curriculum has a high student-instructor ratio compared to the UK and plans to push it even higher.
    *M$F’s curriculum does not include on-road training.
    *M$F’s licensing tests are far easier than the UK’s tests.
    *M$F curriculum has been proven to have no benefits and may put riders at higher risk of injury or death.
    *Every in-the-field rider educator knows it does not produce riders ready for the road.
    *Mandatory training would break already scarce resources.
    *The temptation to cut corners and use inadequate ranges and instructors would be exceedingly high–and training has already become more and more deadly under the BRC.
    *It would drive up the cost of training to the student.
    *It’s likely to create gray or black markets.
    *And result in more rather than less unlicensed riders.
    *Mandatory training for adults riders is discriminatory on that basis alone and only applies to one class of road users.
    *Laws establishing mandatory training by holding out carrots such as bike purchase/registration or helmet use, etc. and burdens only one class of road user. This is discrimination.
    *Such laws add a burden to law enforcement.”

    According to Mary Peters, Secretary of the Department of Transportation on of the goals of FY08 and fy 09 is to:

    Developing National Standards for Entry Level Motorcycle Rider Training that will set the baseline for novice motorcycle rider training programs conducted in the United States.

    In other words we have no current peer reviewed, independently researched data substantiating anything other than what Rogue alluded to above. M$F is what is commonly referred to as a “Front organization” for the MIC and shares web space with NHTSA whose data is consistently inconsistent.

    This is nothing but profit motivated feel good legislation that will enrich the schools and do little to reduce the carnage on the killing fields we refer to as public highways.

    Every SMRO in the nation along with the AMA, and MRF should be outraged about this.

    We in Florida have often asked Rogues question, Where does the money go”?

  28. 28 Nicker Jul 7th, 2008 at 2:45 am


    “…You seem to think that having a “mentor” that has no teaching skills or curriculm is superior to the classroom and trained instructors…”

    In retrospect, the guys that i hung with sorta did that for me. What they didn’t tell me i had to learn the hard way. And ya, that was a straight-up Darwinnian process. I was lucky, survived the first year, paid attention, and learend from my screw-ups.

    real good advice was there for the asking at any camp fire or shop BS session. Young “break-in-bikers” (New-bees) kept their yaps shut and their ears open. A time when ya got invited on a run based on your attitude, not your check-book. When a screw-up got you an ass-kicking or a trip in the meat wangon,…… if you were lucky. A trip to the morgue if you weren’t.

    To be fair it should be said that this was a time whent the roads were far less conjested and were populated with better drivers. And there was a much smaller community of scooter jockys.

    “Mentoring” isn’t a bad idea……But today, it’s all different.
    The driving public is clueless so it’s much more dangerous out there. More to the point, older new-bees don’t listen to or ask for advice.
    Lets face it, that’s exactly why they don’t take older guys in the service…..
    And younger guys are so full of “self esteam” they don’t listen.

    With today’s huge population of “bikers”, when was the last time ya went on a “toy or poker run” and told some one ya didn’t know that they were riding like an idiot……….???

    The point is, those that want to learn how to ride will find a way ( be it “mentor”, due dilligence, books, whatever), those who don’t, won’t….. And no amount of mandated industry or government classes will change that.

    So, what to do about the crash stats…….???
    Well, how about leaving it to the market. All New-bees go into an “assigned-risk pool.”
    They pay for each other’s screw-ups.
    The longer ya go without a crash, the lower your insurance rate.

    Traffic tickets make your rates go up.
    Riding AMA sanctioned family enduros make your rate go down.

    No insurance, no riding….. it’s that simple.
    Find your own “classes”…….


  29. 29 JanBOLT Jul 7th, 2008 at 10:48 am

    Don’t let the safety nannies fool you, and be sure they are not picking your pocket.

    I agree completely with what Rogue wrote at 8:33 on July 2nd,

    starting with:
    “While this may sound like a good law when first looking at it Do Not be Fooled By It……”

    and ending with “I respectfully request that you do not approve of laws that make things Mandatory for us as indivuals. Each one of us have different circumstances and should be able to make our own decisions on what is right and wrong for us.
    With that also comes the Responsibility For Those Decisions – Right or Wrong.”

    Youngsters and new people in the world of motorcycling, please listen up about what is going on when you hear something being pushed on you like it is a good thing. The first thing to think about is whether or not there is money involved, because, unfortunately, the biggest motivator in passing legislation is money, and the ones pushing for the change are the ones who stand to profit. The second motivator is power, which in corporate circles is also referred to as “leverage”. Before thinking something is a good idea, ask yourself what long-term consequences your decisions will make.

    Thanks to people like Rogue and others who have been around and seen it all.

  30. 30 David Jul 7th, 2008 at 5:37 pm

    Sounds good. I think maybe Biiy Lane should attend!!!

  31. 31 Gar Jul 7th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    I have a great idea that should satisfy Nicker, Rouge, Greenwald & Company.

    Let’s do this: Let us assume for a minute that you and your fellow trumpet tiers are correct with your assertion that Government shouldn’t have anything to say in your lives. So let’s do this, no more motorcycle rider safety course regulations … hell if you have a motorcycle and some fire trails no one should be in a position to stop you from riding it. No more drivers training course requirement either …. if you have a car or access to one screw it go drive the thing after all isn’t that the way they did it in the ol’ days? No more airline pilot regulations ….. if you have access to an airplane shouldn’t you be able to fly the damn thing without the government stepping in …. that is the way they used to do it isn’t it. While we are at it why not do away with any form of regulation on everything ….. sounds good to me.

    Now I know Greenwald will write a 28 paragraph dissertation as to why I have taken his and everyone else’s comments out of context. All I can say to that is please, please spare us all. I don’t have the time of will power to read a lengthy paper.

    Gotta run, I am in a hurry to get to NASA! I always wanted to be an astronaut and now I can without any training requirements!

    Earth to Gar, Earth to Gar, Come in Gar!

  32. 32 Mike Greenwald Jul 7th, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    Guess you got into the forced asstronot program…Lucky you, space cadet.

  33. 33 Conrad Nicklus Jul 7th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

    Wow Greenwald chimed in to that fast. Is that a PDA with automatic blog capabilities you are using Greenwald???

    By the way, Gar, since I have always wanted to be a Surgeon can I go to any hospital and start working on people??? Just need to know if thats considered here as well!

    DR Conrad

  34. 34 Mike Greenwald Jul 7th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    Nah Conrad, just good at reading the smoke screen or is it signals of a Gar. Good luck with your practice.

  35. 35 Jeff Nicklus Jul 7th, 2008 at 9:09 pm


    Remember we have talked about getting back on your medication, now would be a good time before re-entry!

  36. 36 rc Jul 8th, 2008 at 12:40 am

    “All TRUTH passes through 3 stages:
    1st – it is ridiculed
    2nd – it is violently opposed
    3rd – it is accepted as SELF EVIDENT”
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

    “In a time of universal deceit, telling the TRUTH is a revolutionary act.” – George Orwell


  37. 37 Nicker Jul 8th, 2008 at 12:54 am


    Some how you seem to have gotten “protecting us from each other” confused with “protecting us from ourselves.

    “… Government shouldn’t have anything to say in your lives …”

    No, that would be anarchy.

    What we’re saying is the government establishes the basic rules. The “framework” that allow us to do our own thing… (now pay attention here) ….. without killing each other.

    With respect to driving, they establish the rules of the road. The rules of the road simply keep us from infringing on someone else’s rights while using our commonly held infrastructure. So if you wanna kill yourself on a scooter, it’s OK with me……. provided ya don’t take me out while your doing it.

    How does NASA or the Airlines figure in all this……….. ??????


  38. 38 Conrad Nicklus Jul 8th, 2008 at 2:12 am


    Come on man, are you serious??? (How does NASA or the Airlines figure in all this……….. ??????)


    He is basically showing you that it is all the same, which in fact it is hince why I wrote my SURGEON comment.
    Gar is telling you that the way you ,and the called out few, that going against taking a motorcycle education course is like telling new drivers they should go out and learn themselves and not take a drivers safet course. As also you should not be trained to be a pilot or to be an astronaut. It is all the same, one in one…etc..You are trained to drive a car and read signs as you are trained to ride a bike the correct ways and read and follow the laws acordingly……

    “”So if you wanna kill yourself on a scooter, it’s OK with me……. provided ya don’t take me out while your doing it.””
    So what you are saying is you want people to take a drivers safety course for a car but if it comes to a bike, seeing you have sooo much experience, you should beable to ride if you have no endorsement or not? BUT you say you dont want one to take you out???? HMMMM so what you are saying is if you take someone out and kill them you would not change your mind if it was a preventable accident by taking a safety course?

  39. 39 Mike Greenwald Jul 8th, 2008 at 8:29 am


    Crashes are usually preventable, accidents are usually not preventable. Inadequate “safety courses” prevent neither crashes nor accidents.

    Skill levels needed to properly operate a motorcycle in the real world are neither taught nor tested. Issuance of a motorcycle endorsement based upon attendance and completion of a BRC in lieu of an actual test of skills makes the endorsement nothing more than an additional taxation.

    Screw using the word “SAFETY” in any of this conversation. I do not feel any “safety” for having taken that course and no one else should feel “safety” for having taken those courses.

    The waiver of “skills testing” makes motorcycle operation more dangerous for those that do possess the skills and those that purchased the waiver by the state allowing the operation under false pretense of adequate skills necessary.

    These courses only provide perceived safety and not actual safety. The waiver of a skills competency test by the state is a manufactured greed of getting something for nothing.

    I am not willing to accept the blame/culpability, as a motorcyclist, for the injury or fatality of an unskilled/inattentive rider that has purchased a skills test waiver and is injured or dies because their lack of skills.

    Development of motorcycling skills is akin to development of solid character within yourself and you can not purchase either.

  40. 40 rc Jul 8th, 2008 at 8:41 am

    Conrad, I do not know what state you are from. In Florida no safety course/drivers course is required for a first time license applicant who can then tool about town in a big ol 4 wheel drive pick em up. A little bit discriminatory don’t you think?

    Add to that, that the motorcyclists, in Florida, must pay an additional cost that Auto drivers do not. They must pay this cost to to what amounts to an industry backed monopoly (MSF) for a course that can not demonstrate is effectiveness.

    I understand my post above citing some of Wendy Moon’s work and others was more than two paragraphs long so you may not have read it. If you did you did have not responded to some fairly significant issues pointed out re the ineffectiveness of rider training as it currently stands.

    Unable to engage in intelligent debate of the issues you choose to engage in specious arguments that draw attention away from the real issue.

    I am quite certain that obtaining a pilots license involves a bit more than heres the controls, take a few loops around the runway and your free to fly.

    Rider education as it is currently provided in this country is profit oriented and seriously
    flawed. To be mandated by governmental agencies to spend your tax dollars on something that will provide little benefit to you is tantamount to extortion.

    I challenge you to research Wendy Moons site, study some of the European and Australian approaches that have had successes, arm your self with some facts and then come back and present your argument.

    Unless of course you are a member of one of the ABATE chapters that makes money off of rider training or are a rider trainer yourself and are reluctant to question the cash cow.

    My apologies for devoting more than two paragraphs to an issue that if addressed may save the lives of of Bikers who are forced to take a course that may well result in their early demise.

  41. 41 Rogue Jul 8th, 2008 at 10:15 am

    There are already reports coming in from people attending some of these mandatory courses that they have been allowed to go home early. Meaning that they did not complete the amount of hours they were suppose to be trained.
    There has also been incidents where the motorcycles used in the class have had mechanical problems. It is expected that many of the motorcycles would develop clutch and other problems BUT unexcusable that they be used with out first repairing.
    The cost of maintaining and repair of the motorcycles have been figuered into the already high price of the classes.
    There is a definate profit mentality being used by some putting on these courses and some abuse is expected BUT should not be tollerated.
    By all means those who feel training would benefit them should get it But they should also be getting what they pay for.
    Home Schooling is allowed for basic education Why Not For Motorcycle Training?
    With having to take the test from the department issuing the license it would be easy to see if the applicant was qualified.
    Please realize that there are different circumstances and situations for different people. There will always be different opinions so do what you feel is safest for you and yours and let other do the same.
    Through out life we make decisions, hopefully they are the right ones But even when they are not we live with those and learn from our mistakes.
    Some will say that a mistake while riding could injur or kill you BUT also there is no guarantee that courses or testing will change any of that.
    Ride Free

  42. 42 Conrad Nicklus Jul 8th, 2008 at 11:06 am

    RC,Rogue etc….

    I dont know what you are talking about driving a pick-up truck and shit in florida. To aquire a drivers license you must test just like that of a motorcycle license. You must pay to have that drivers license as you must pay an additional fee to have a class M, A,B etc…..A rider safety course is like a CDL course in my eyes. I believe that everyone needs to take the class. Rogue as per your cost statement,if you (person buying the bike complaining about the course) are bitching about the whole 300$ then you cant afford to buy a bike. I think the 300$ is well worth it. I took the course when I was 15 and my father even came with me aswell and trust me I have been riding since I was 4 years old when my dad bought me my first dirt bike (Honda 50R Red/white..it was sweet). I have the experience and none of which are with whimpy 50 or 60 hp Harleys, these are 130+HP Vtwins. I can handle just about any bike you put under me but when I took the course I learned a lot more than I thought I would. I feel that even people who dont ride should atleast learn about the motorcycles safety course. When I took my drivers course for my vehicle license I was kind of disturbed by the fact that maybe a whole 5 mins was dedicated to bikes, bikers, 4 wheelers etc…YEA NOT MOTORCYCLES DIRECTLY. But instead they cover all of the “other road vehicles” instead of just motorcyclists.

    So my point here is I do not care about Austrailia or Europe or whoever RC. All I care about is MY COUNTRY and what MY COUNTRY has done law wise. I am all for the Safety Course. It has worked well for everyone and it will continue to do so. So with that being said I dont need to do any research on some Wendy Liberal lady with a massive Democratic view on everything. I dont like that crap nor would I like to read it to have an arguement with you about what is better for each person. We are all different and we have our own OPINIONS.

  43. 43 Gar Jul 8th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

    Well boys, I suppose Conrad just Bitch Slapped all of you!

  44. 44 Gar Jul 8th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    Let me take a quote from Jeff Nicklus on another subject on this blog :


    I quote from a biography of Arthur Schopenhauer:

    “Schopenhauer did not believe that people had individual wills but were rather simply part of a vast and single will that pervades the universe: that the feeling of separateness that each of has is but an illusion. The problem with Schopenhauer, is that, in his view, “the cosmic will is wicked … and the source of all endless suffering.”

    Sounds like someone I would like to quote ….. NOT!

    Stefy are you and RC one in the same? If not you sure quote from the same loser!

    Just my observation.

  45. 45 Gar Jul 8th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

    I am done with any further comments on this subject. This is starting to bore me. The bottom line is the law is the law and we as citizens only have three choices in dealing with the law:

    1: We can choose to break the law. (not my first choice)

    2: We can abide by the law. (which I will always do)

    3: We can move to change the law. (been there, done that)

    Many of you will choose the first option, which is evident in the number of people who do not now have nor have they ever had a MC Endorsement now.

    Most will abide by the law, option 2

    When dealing with option 3 one can get involved with the workings of government and get the laws changed. I fear this will not be the case with many who have chimmed in here ….. it is easier to bitch and moan and groan about something but when it comes down to it nothing is ever done.

    So now the challenge is out – RC, Rogue, Nicker and Greenwald & Company ….. Get ‘er Done!

  46. 46 Mike Greenwald Jul 8th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    Yeah Gar,your meds are not quite tweaked.
    I really don’t give a damn if you are bored or not Gar. Whining little weasel. You haven’t done a damned thing to change laws and asren’t doing anything now. You don’t have the wherewithal to issue a challenge nor the gumption and cajones or money to back it up. Go home and tell your mom we are picking on you.

  47. 47 Nicker Jul 8th, 2008 at 3:04 pm


    Your missing the point… big time….

    “…going against taking a motorcycle education course is like telling new drivers they should go out and learn themselves and not take a drivers safet course…”

    No, i’m going against being forced to take a particular course (and apparently a flawed one at that), as opposed to developing my own proficiency process.

    You may not remember it, or have been around when it was up to your family to teach ya how to drive a car, That was SOP when i was a kid. And this may be anecdotal, but in those days (as i recall them) the general public were far better drivers than are out there today.

    Do people today have some type of a “need” to do stuff “in a group”…..???
    Sorry, i generally tend to stay away for this “were all in it together” stuff.


  48. 48 burnout Jul 8th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    At what point do we guarantee our safety and lose all our freedom? Its always a trade-off. Gain something, lose more. The cool thing about this blog is everyone cares…….or there wouldn’t be so many interesting comments!! peace

  49. 49 rc Jul 8th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    “To aquire a drivers license you must test just like that of a motorcycle license. You must pay to have that drivers license as you must pay an additional fee to have a class M, A,B etc”

    In Florida to get your operators license all you need to do is study the book, get a parent to say they have observed your driving for a period of time. Pass the drivers test at the issuing station and you have a license (of course you pay the license fee which is a lot less than 300.00). This license will allow you to drive a four wheel drive pickup “and” pull a trailer You do not have to take any “safety course”. In the past as a new motorcyclist you could do the same, read the book and take the test at the issuing station and receive your endorsement if you passed. Under the new law, motorcyclist are now treated differently.

    If Conrad, all you care about is your country, then you might care about singling out certain
    populations for discrimination and harassment.

    Europe currently has decreasing motorcycle fatalities that can be attributed to an effective motorcycle training program instituting silly things like real world traffic testing, etc. They have even figured out how to teach finding the friction zone without having rider run of the course. It saves lives. But then we should ignore whatever they are doing, including saving lives, because hey what the hell, it’s Europe.

    It’s a shame that your narrow minded focus does not expand beyond our borders. If you were to try and expand your knowledge base you might gain a better understanding of such mundane things as energy prices, the loss of middle class jobs in this country and wars over oil that that other narrow minded people who could not see beyond lies allowed ourselves to get into.

    I am sure you do not have to read Wendy Moon or any other authoritative source on the subject as it appears that you already know it all. Congratulations for a achieving a state of mind that Einstein would not presume to claim.

    You are correct Conrad, we all have our own opinins. Some people form opinions based on fact and are not afraid to challenge their belief systems. Others base their options on myths and are to insecure to research that which might prove their belief systems are nothing more than an illusion. But this America and ignorance is a right any are free to chose.

    Gar, despite the fact that I could argue Schopenhauer’s theory with you and demonstrate that it has some validity (are you familiar with the concept of “Unwritten scripts” ) this is not the forum for such a discussion.

    When a law is unjust it is an Americans patriotic duty to violate it. My contention would be that Conrad “bitch slapped” himself by demonstrating a self righteous arrogance that sends the message my way or no way couched in the phrase everybody has the right to their own opinions.

    Conrad. you make the statement: “I am all for the Safety Course. It has worked well for everyone and it will continue to do so.”

    Since you are not willing to investigate the sources we have provided maybe you would be so kind as to enlighten us with the independent (not aligned with a governmental or corporate entity,) studies that have been peer reviewed with references to other sources that will prove your contention.

    I look forward to seeing it and will try to be open minded enough to change what I currently believe if the information you present follows scientifically accepted research parameters as
    opposed to “Vehicle Miles Traveled.”

    Ride Safe ignore the M$F

  50. 50 Gar Jul 8th, 2008 at 4:04 pm


    You might be shocked at my net worth, bet it puts you to shame. Want to put some money where your mouth is?

    You would also be shocked to know how many laws I may have been a party to enacting on the state level. Best of all you would be horrified to learn how many Federal Prisoners I have clamped the cuffs on. So go back in your hole sonny boy and lick your nuts.

  51. 51 Gar Jul 8th, 2008 at 4:21 pm


    Please quote me the paragraph and verse of the Federal Statues wherein it is stated “When a law is unjust it is an Americans patriotic duty to violate it.” I would really like to read that. I must have missed the day that was covered in law school. I don’t remember reading that in the Bill of Rights and I can assure you there is nothing in the US Constitution covering that, so I am curious. (Please don’t tell me the Declaration of Independence either …. not there)

    In my experience if you were to break the law, no matter your perceived patriotic duty, you would get you butt thrown in jail and given an opportunity to explain you position to a Judge …… you know the part where the Judge says “Do you have anything to say before this court passes sentence upon you?” you could explain all day long at that point. FYI: Let me know where they send you and I will send you Cigarette money.

  52. 52 Mike Greenwald Jul 8th, 2008 at 4:55 pm

    It sounds like you are an upright patriotic citizen. About those laws you helped pass, were they designed to strengthen the constitution and the bill of rights or were they special interest laws designed to improve your net worth? You experience with handcuffs doesn’t horrify me. It seems rather predictable.

  53. 53 JanBOLT Jul 8th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    Mammograms save lives. Are mandatory mammograms next? Who is going to pay for them. I will refuse, so send me to non-conformist prison now and be done with it…if you can, because I will never give in and am willing to go down fighting.

    There are people, like me, who learned how to ride and control motorcycles by riding them off-road every day for the fist few years of riding. For those rich urban biker who start on asphalt and stay on asphalt, a course of basic instruction is probably a good thing, but just because something might be good for some yuppies who had a sissified mommas boy upbringing, so they grew up clumsy rather than agile, should not make anything mandatory on others.

    From what I understand about Florida, people in the Keys are going to have to go to the mainland for 3 days at terribly high expense. And why? Because some friggin’ safety nannies, like some of the above, think the government has the right to control everything and they think it is a good idea to make courses mandatory for all. Get out of other peoples wallets!

    In the words of Jonathan Edwards, “You can’t even your own life, I’ll be damned if you’ll run mine”.

    Some people are asking to have RFID chips inserted in their babies shortly after birth. Currently, it is voluntary. (Just wait until a kid suits the parents!) At some point, you safety nannies will be upset when someone comes for one of your rights and come to your senses and figure out that the powers of government have been increasing and citizens rights are seen by legislators and governors as “optional – at the whim of those who govern”. By the time it is to the point where you decide to stand up for your individual rights, it may be too late. The government will have already taken your guns and all your other rights. The judges won’t side with you because nobody stands up for rights anymore. If you ever find out what freedom means, you will be seen as an anomaly and a threat to the status quo. Enjoy your new RFID chip, and your compliant plastic bubble safety nazi society. Kepp your papers with you at all times. Don’t let the kids climb trees or go for a swim, or learn to ride a bike….on their own.

    You friggin safety nannies who ask the government to force everyone to think like you do make me want to puke. Some of these people are a complete waste of good oxygen, and a waste of time. They will never make a stand for freedom. I’m outa here.

  54. 54 Gar Jul 8th, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    I have always worked to strengthen the Constitution of The United Sates of America. With that said that doesn’t mean that I was successful in every case and laws were passed that I opposed and that I voted against. That is a Democratic Society in action. However, the question is: If I disagree with a law does that give me the “Right” to not comply with it? NO! We as a society do not have the privilege of picking and choosing the laws we will follow and those that we will not. If you or I or any American Citizen opposes a law then we have the “RIGHT” to work to change that law. I personally think this mandatory Safety Course law in Florida sucks, but you could bet your ass I would prosecute the violators of the law if that were my job, simply because it is the LAW. Make no question about it, the Law is what separates us from the rest of the world. The Law is the divider between us and some nickel and dime dictator pulling a military coup here. It is therefore our duty as citizens to obey the Law, PERIOD.

    FYI: The lobbyists always hated me and were more than happy to learn I would only serve one term in our state Senate. So to answer your question, no I never accepted any special interest money.

  55. 55 Nicker Jul 8th, 2008 at 11:39 pm


    THis is confusing….

    “…. NO! We as a society do not have the privilege of picking and choosing the laws we will follow and those that we will not…”

    Well, let’s see….., if polititcians don’t get to ignore “the rule of law,” why then would there ever have been a need for a “Writt of Mandamous.”……. Hmmm….???
    (was it Maddison that got one thrown at him, for not following a bill (law) sorry my memory isn’t what it was)

    Seems to me, at every level of government, laws are rutinely ignored.

    “…If you or I or any American Citizen opposes a law then we have the “RIGHT” to work to change that law. I personally think this …….law …… sucks, but you could bet your ass I would prosecute the violators of the law if that were my job, simply because it is the LAW…”

    So, does that mean you’d be the one who runs arround confiscating guns when the “UN gun grabbers” finally get their way….???

    le-me suggest that this might not be the blog where ya try and impress people with your “hand-cuffing ability”

    Just a thought.

  56. 56 rc Jul 8th, 2008 at 11:52 pm

    The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.
    – Patrick Henry

    The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others.
    – Thomas Jefferson

    If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.
    – Thomas Jefferson

    We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.
    – Abraham Lincoln

    it is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from its government.
    -Thomas Paine

    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Declaration of Independence

    “If a juror feels that the statute involved in any criminal offence is unfair, or that it infringes upon the defendant’s natural God-given unalienable or Constitutional rights, then it is his duty to affirm that the offending statute is really no law at all and that the violation of it is no crime at all, for no one is bound to obey an unjust law.”
    U.S. Chief Justice Harlan F. Stone, 1941-1946.
    (Emphases added.)

    Trial by Jury- wherein the law is not law until the jury says it is.
    “People who judge authoritatively what their liberties are, retain all the liberties they wish to enjoy. This is Liberty. Trial by Jury is a trial by the People of the country, distinguished from a trial by the government. The intention of this trial is to enable the People to determine their liberties; because, if the government determines the People’s liberties, then government has absolute power over the People; and this is the definition of despotism.”

    “In recognition of these immutable facts, Trial by Jury was adopted by the People as part of ‘the law of the land’ [i.e. common law] and installed subsequently by written constitutional law [Magna Carta; U.S. Constitution] as that tribunal which establishes permanently within the domain of the People, as opposed to the government, supreme judgement by citizen-jurors of the People’s liberties. Simultaneously, by that singular act in Trial by Jury, jurors (not judges, the government’s beholden employees) decide which behaviour is anti-social, forbidden, of criminal intent and punishable.”

    “To a degree achieved by no other constitution, Constitutional Common Law Trial by Jury responds to mankind’s unceasing need: to enforce just laws; to uphold the innocent; to protect minorities; to nullify arbitrary government; and to reject injustice.

    We are not a democracy. We are a republic. A democracy can lead to suppression of individual rights. Our country was founded on the principle of individual rights.

    Compare events of the day to the times of our forefathers and I would say that the Declaration Independence fits quite nicely thank you. Form my part I shall choose to abide by it. You sir may choose to comply with bad law. This is America, that is your choice.

  57. 57 Gar Jul 9th, 2008 at 10:31 am


    Following is a definition of the legal term “Writ of Mandamus”:

    A writ of mandamus or simply mandamus, which means “we command” in Latin, is the name of one of the prerogative writs in the common law, and is issued by a superior court (appellate court) to compel a lower court or a government officer to perform mandatory or purely ministerial duties correctly.[1]

    Mandamus is a judicial remedy which is in the form of an order from a superior court to any government, subordinate court, corporation or public authority to do or forbear from doing some specific act which that body is obliged under law to do or refrain from doing, as the case may be, and which is in the nature of public duty and in certain cases of a statutory duty.[2] It cannot be issued to compel an authority to do something against statutory provision.

    Mandamus may be a command to do something or not to do a particular thing. Mandamus is supplemented by legal rights. It must be a judicially enforceable and legally protected right before one suffering a grievance can ask for a mandamus. A person can be said to be aggrieved only when he is denied a legal right by someone who has a legal duty to do something and abstains from doing it.

    On many occasions in legal history these Writs have been issued and enforced and will continue to be enforced in the future. That takes nothing away from the fact that once a law is a law the law can and will be enforced until such time as a Superior Court rules the law Unconstitutional or some other cause that would render the law worthless. The Writ is simply a method of enforcement by a Superior Court, therefore your argument here is a moot until such time as the law is challenged.

    I repeat myself when I say – why are you not out working to change the law you oppose? I would think your time would be better spent doing that than toying with me.

    FYI: It will be a cold day in hell when I allow my guns to be taken – Good effort to change the subject though.


    Great quotes – meaningless in this argument – but great quotes.

  58. 58 rc Jul 9th, 2008 at 11:42 am

    Matter of perspective I reckon. The Florida legislature has passed a law. A jury (the people) has yet to weigh in on the validity of the law. The legislature has spoken. The people haven’t.

  59. 59 Gar Jul 9th, 2008 at 12:17 pm


    A “Jury”, in the legal definition, is not the “people” as a whole. So that is meaningless in a manner of speaking. I disagree with you that the people have not spoken as the people are responsible for electing the Florida Legislature. It is also the people of Florida who can Un-Elect the legislature. That in and of itself has been my point throughout this rant. Now it is the peoples turn! I can assure you the number one thing a politician understands is VOTES, or more importantly, the lack thereof. Trust me, you speak loud enough and the law will be changed! Good Luck!

  60. 60 Nicker Jul 10th, 2008 at 1:05 am


    So, am i missing your point, or what….????

    “… FYI: It will be a cold day in hell when I allow my guns to be taken – Good effort to change the subject though…”

    I thought the issues here was about conforming to a law (scooter testing or any other)…..

    So, if its “a cold day in Hell”….. zat-mean you would NOT turn in your gun (if the law required)…..???


  61. 61 Gar Jul 10th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    It will be a cold day in hell when guns in this country are designed as illegal. Won’t happen, at least not in our lifetime or our children’s. Did you not read the recent Supreme Court decision? They affirmed the 2nd Amendment in a 5-4 decision! That in and of itself will be a hard act to follow for the “Gonna get your guns crowd”. It literally would take a Constitutional Amendment before firearm possession by a citizen could become illegal. To amend the Constitution is not an easy process, which I will lay out for you as follows:

    Article V of the Constitution prescribes how an amendment can become a part of the Constitution. While there are two ways, only one has ever been used. All 27 Amendments have been ratified after two-thirds of the House and Senate approve of the proposal and send it to the states for a vote. Then, three-fourths of the states must affirm the proposed Amendment.

    The other method of passing an amendment requires a Constitutional Convention to be called by two-thirds of the legislatures of the States. That Convention can propose as many amendments as it deems necessary. Those amendments must be approved by three-fourths of the states.

    Guess what? “We The People” will have the final say in Gun Ownership. Guns will always be legal in the United States. The subject of a Constitutional Amendment will not pass either house, as long as we keep the Democrats out of office.

    To answer your question however, I will say this – as a sworn officer of the court I swore to uphold the Constitution and the Laws of The United States of America, therefore if a Constitutional Amendment was indeed passed and enacted into law, and I will not break the law, therefore I would be mandated to take my guns and box them up, with all of my other possessions, and move out of the country. I rest assured, however, that scenario will never present itself to me so I have no need to set and wring my hands in paranoia.

  62. 62 Dave B. Jul 10th, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    For anyone that is interested, I will share my story involving the MSF rider course.
    Being the ownwer of a small bike shop, I am frequently asked about the MSF course by people in and out of the shop and I am asked by my insuance company when I renew my policies on the bikes I ride, so I thought it would make sense to take the course and actually know something about it when people asked me, and maybe even get a cheaper insurance rate.
    I had taken the standard test and got my bike license over 20 years before taking the MSF course, (took the MSF course in 2003), and rode dirt bikes throughout my childhood so the course was nothing new to me, but those taking the course with me were all new to riding, some had ridden a friend’s bike while others had never put the grips in thier hands before. The course I attended took a few hours on day one, and a few hours on day two, with class time and on-the-bike time being about the same.
    The class instructers were lifetime riders and very knowlegable, they were patient and worked with the class until every one of the students were able to complete the course and the classroom criteria. At this time they also made it very clear that the course does not actually qualify a person as a skilled rider, that only comes with practical experience.
    The MSF course is far more comprehensive than the state approved test, and I think anyone new to riding can benifit from it considerably. Having said that, I feel the state should offer a similar course, even if it costs more than the old test, and people can decide which course they will take.
    I think it is irresponsible, and maybe even illegal, for a state to forego its responsibility to provide licensing testing and leave it up to a second-party organization to provide it.
    I’m not a Florida resident so it’s no skin off my nose, but it will be interesting to see if anyone files a suit contesting this.

  63. 63 Nicker Jul 11th, 2008 at 1:07 am


    Well, as a ” sworn officer of the court ” you should be damned concerned about Justice Kennedy.
    That decision was a 5-to-4, not quite a slam dunk. Although i agree that it set a precedent in basing it’s decision on the “individual We” as opposed to the “collective we,” i’m not as sanguine as you about the ability of the Constitution to survive a Liberal, activist court.

    “…It literally would take a Constitutional Amendment before firearm possession by a citizen could become illegal…”

    No, it would simply take the globalists in this country subordinating us to the International Court.
    Hell, how is your swearing to uphold the constitution any different than a soldier who swears to serve the United states of America, and then finds himself in a UN uniform…..????
    And we both know what happened to the Kid who refused to sew on those blue UN patches.

    Moreover, we both know what Clinton did with his “Presidential Orders.”

    Those bastards at the UN and the “usefull idiots”…… oops, i mean “intelectuals” being turned out by our school systems are intent on introducing the “internationalism” that H.G. Wells advocated:

    “… the replacement for duty to one’s country and the Constitution by the idea of a cosmopolitan duty…”

    Well, you may be ready to “… box them up, with all of my other possessions, and move out of the country…” but as a naturalized immigrant who serve two combat tures in Vietnam, i’m not ready to give up my wonderfull, addopted country.


  64. 64 Nicker Jul 11th, 2008 at 2:01 am


    Sorry, i missed your very important post….

    “…there is already talk of now passing a law that would make it Mandatory to go back to school every so many years to keep your license. …”

    And so it appears…. the very “slippery slope”….
    So, what else will they come up with…????

    How about mandatory parenting classes, because bad parents sure as Hell cost society more than scooter crashes.


  65. 65 Conrad Nicklus Jul 11th, 2008 at 5:11 am

    As per your comment “You don’t have the wherewithal to issue a challenge nor the gumption and cajones or money to back it up”. I feel you must be one arrogant son of a bitch. If you must bring someones “money” up, you must be one sad asshole. Leave money out of this we are not in a presidential race with Obama and the other lady,Hilary?……

    Im sorry but if you are that insecure and unstable maybe you should see a doctor, which has BEEN trained by a COURSE about being a doctor at MINIMUM,that is capable os sending some correct treatment your way. Why is it that when you are bitch slapped you cant just tuck your tail between your legs and go home to your mom and cry wolf? I mean come on here man its a flippin blog, not an inquiry to the Chicago Tribune. Chill the F out dude, its not a big deal and maybe if you are going to take this to heart you should sign off and never come back you wont be missed, nor would Gar or I. So go back to High School,I thought I was done with that shit a long time ago yetfeel like I am a junior all over again with your constant bickering over bullshit.

    So heed my warning, call Gar or I out, I dont give a God damned. BUT This is bullshit, we are here to voice our thoughts not have a huge debate on who has more money in the bank. Yea Rolex this Ferrari that, they are just objects and prove nothing as to how a person is. I drive a Mercedes not a Hyundai are you goin got judge me even harsher now? I mean come on grow the flip up guys.

    Gar, I agree with you a 100% here. I dont feel as if this is worth my time nor yours. I am done posting on this stupid MSC shit after this PARAGRAPGH is done.

    To finish up here with the nagging nannies which have set me off at 4am, im awake cleaning up my place awaiting the arrival of my mom and dad!, I am sick of the shit.

    RC, I did a little study of my own at work. I have 5 guys that are coworkers of mine who ride bikes to work. 3 of which have ridden since they were kids, one of which is 47 the other two are in their mid 30s. They told me they learn more about riding and laws in the 2 day class than they did in 20+ years of riding bikes. The other 2 are my agae, around 22 yrs old. They also told me the riders safety course could be a potential lifesafer. They learned laws, signs, rules and regualtions all in a 2 day period. So RC I would say that my STUDIES have been succesful and now I can say I have read my shit I have read your shit and everyone elses SHIT. I am done with you and this MSC commentary. I have way better things to do than sit here and hear you and your debonair group of friends argue and bitch about who has a higher net worth and/or who has a bigger double wide. I am sorry I must be more grown up than all of you, at the ripe old age of 21.

    Goodnight to all

    Gar, keep bitch slapping everyone for me on this commentary while I further my education with things that are far more important.


  66. 66 Conrad Nicklus Jul 11th, 2008 at 5:15 am

    Gar, I agree with you a 100% here. I dont feel as if this is worth my time nor yours. I am done posting on this stupid MSC shit after this PARAGRAPH is done.

    Sorry for the spelling error,my grammar coach forgot to tell me to check my spelling before I turn in my papers.

  67. 67 Gar Jul 11th, 2008 at 10:02 am


    WE FINALLY AGREE ON SOMETHING. The planets must be in alignment. The UN, in my humble opinion, should be closed down or at the very least shipped out of the USA to some country, lets say Ethiopia. We as a country should withdraw from the UN IMMEDIATELY.

    Anthony Kennedy has been an Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court since 1988. Appointed by Republican President Ronald Reagan, he acts as the Court’s swing vote in many cases, and he has, consequently, held special prominence in many politically charged 5–4 decisions. I therefore believe he is not an overwhelming threat to our gun rights. Hopefully I am correct in my assessment of Justice Kennedy.

    I myself served a tour in scenic South Viet Nam. In country in 1968. So welcome home brother.

    Gar Out

  68. 68 Rogue Jul 11th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

    You asked and here it is.

    Parental Authority: Grounded
    July 10, 2008

    A daughter sues her father for grounding her. A court agrees that the punishment was too severe. The court overrules father, overturns punishment. What?

    This is happening in Canada. So it’s not anything we in the States need worry about. Yet.

    I didn’t quite believe this story at first. But it’s true. The unnamed 12-year-old was forbidden to go on a field trip because she disobeyed rules about her use of the Internet. She chatted on websites that her father had tried to block. And she posted pictures of herself that he regarded as inappropriate. He says this is simply her latest misconduct.

    Justice Suzanne Tessier of the Quebec Superior Court acts as if grounding your child were tantamount to child abuse. And how dare Dad be concerned about online predators and such!

    The lawyer for the father, Kim Beaudoin, says it’s the job of parents to set boundaries. Er, yes. Of course it’s the job of parents to raise their own children, not the state’s job. Or does Judge Tessier believe that a bureaucrat should be installed in every home, lugging a hefty manual stipulating exactly when a parent may send Timmy to his room?

    Should a judge who would make such a ludicrous, totalitarian decision even be allowed to remain on the bench? At the very least, Tessier should be spanked. And no TV for the rest of the week.

    This is Common Sense. I’m Paul Jacob.

  69. 69 Nicker Jul 13th, 2008 at 4:31 am

    Ya, well,

    I’m not sure where all this stuff that the Government does “for my own good” is gonna stop…???

    Knowing human nature, i suspect that is won’t stop. And there in lies the problem.


  70. 70 greenbeagle Jul 20th, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    Well, right or wrong that it is mandatory, I just took it and I learned a lot from the Basic Rider Course. I am NOT saying I am a top notch motorcyclist because of it, but I AM saying I was surprised at some of the skills (as minute as they might be) I learned. Years ago when I went to get a motorcycle endorsement, I couldn’t even turn my motorcycle in the box, so I just kept getting my temporary permit (back then Florida didn’t keep track of how many temp permits a person had) and continued to drive around on my motorcycle. Granted, learning to turn in a box isn’t going to save my life, but I’m hoping to make a point here. During the Basic Rider Class I was taught how to shift my weight and look where I was going, not down, for these tight turns, and I practiced it, and I did it inside the box! The whole shifting my weight and looking where I was going just blew me away how it worked. And, of course, there are other techniques I learned form this school, that I would NOT have learned by simply buying a motorcycle. I am glad that it was made mandatory. I may not agree where the money goes, etc., but for me it isn’t a political issue, it’s just one small tool that will help me when I get endorsement tomorrow and start riding. I’m not going to be some cocky maniac just because I went to this Basic Rider Course, but at least I have more of a starting point than before. I intend to take the Experienced Rider Course as well. To be honest, when I went into this thing, I thought everyone would pass simply because it was a “business” and they paid their money. Well, everyone didn’t pass. I was pleasantly surprised at that. The Rider Coaches helped me a great deal with my techniques, or lack thereof. I read a lot about motorcycle techniques – turning into curves, making tight turns, etc., but I never really understood it until I was out there and was shown by the Rider Coaches and then trusting and applying the technique. The system may have flaws in it, but if there isn’t a mandatory riding class, what is the solution? I think a vehicle with 4 wheels touching the ground is a heck of a lot easier to drive than a motorcycle. I appreciated the class and had it not been mandatory I know me…, I probably would have wanted to take the easy way and just get a motorcycle…

  71. 71 Nicker Jul 21st, 2008 at 12:04 am


    “…but if there isn’t a mandatory riding class, what is the solution…”

    Sounds to me like you found one “years ago” when you first started riding:
    when you “just kept getting [your] temporary permit ) and continued to drive around”

    Sounds like a perfectly good solution to me….what’s the beef…???

    “… had it not been mandatory I know me…, I probably would have wanted to take the easy way and just get a motorcycle…”

    So, what your saying is because you need a nanny to tell ya what to do, the rest of us are supposed to roll over for the same crap….?????

    “…. I am glad that it was made mandatory……. but for me it isn’t a political issue…”

    Well, by insisting that everyone do what you need, by definition you’ve made it political.
    ….BIG TIME…!!!


  72. 72 Nicker Jul 22nd, 2008 at 10:00 pm


    Thanks for the link, good stuff, that.

    It’s scary how quickly people are willing to give up control of their own lives for “benefits.”
    damn near makes ya wanna-puke.


  73. 73 Rreal Jul 28th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    Florida’s new motorcycle endorsement law sucks , how did the price of getting a endorsement just go from $15 to $250 dollars, that is f-ing crazy, i know you rich old guys think that $250 is not a lot of money, but that is a weeks pay for a lot of people. I use my bike as my only transportation not as some extra luxury vehicle to have fun on the weekends , and there is no way i’m paying to 250 f-ing dollars for and endorsement , I’M RIDING ILLEGAL !!!! You can thank this law for it, watch how many young people with not a lot of money do the same. Thanks Florida.

  74. 74 gustian Aug 3rd, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    Hi Nicker,

    as promissed, I’ll try to explain as good as possible what it takes over here in Belgium (and in most of the European countries) to get the driver’s license, so called license A.

    First of all, it doesn’t matter how old you are or if you can prove any insurance policy, covering whatever amount of medical benefits to wear or not to wear a helmet. Over here in Europe, you have to wear a (european security label improved) helmet.

    For the lucky b*stards like me (born in 1956) , who had their driver’s license B (for a car) before 01/01/1989, we may drive any motor cycle, without limit in cubic inch or power. ( I am not discussing if that’s good or bad).

    I will resume what an 18-year old guy or girl has to do to get his/her driver’s license “A” (motorcycle).

    1. First of all, he or she has to be at least 18 years old minus 3 months to start the “theorie school”.
    That takes a 12-hours court in an improved driver’s-school, and an examination at the end. You can repeat these lessons (and tests) unlimited. (if you failed at first)
    2.You don’t take court and learn it by yourself, and you make the theorie- test (also without limit)
    (you are getting 50 questions, you have to have 41 of them correc

  75. 75 gustian Aug 3rd, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    Sorry, I had an interruption,

    so here’s part 2

    After you passed the test with succes, this is valid for a period of 3 years to get your practical part.

    1.As a preparation for your practical test, you can follow an 8 hour court in a school and are supposed to do the practical-test within the same 3 years that follows the positive theorie-test.
    2. Or you take an 6 hour court in the same school and drive 12 months with a temporary driver’s license. You are not allowed to take a passenger, you are not allowed to drive for commercial purposes, you are not allowed to drive you bike on friday-saturday and sunday after 22.00 pm untill 06.00 hours am. This is also the rule on official hollidays (like you have for example july the 14th). This is to avoid the so called weekend-crasches caused by young unexpierenced drivers. (This is for drivers below 24 years old.)
    You are suposed to have a blue ” L-sign” at the back of your bike that shows you are “learning” to drive. This temporary license is valid for the period of 12 months.
    But whatever you do, in both cases, you are suposed to do your practical test within the 3 years following the time you passed succesfully your theory test.

    *** I forgot, the theorie lessons are about the rules of the road of course, but also about security equipment, like gloves, boots, helmet, gogles, collors of the clothes you’re wearing etc. Special attention also on the specific risks when driving in different weather conditions, slippery parts of the roads when it rains, tramway rails etc. ) Also a part “get to know your bike” (the technical part). For example the importance of checking the oil level, chain-tention, good working of the (stop)lights etc.

  76. 76 gustian Aug 3rd, 2008 at 9:42 pm

    And here comes part 3 ,

    the practical test.

    This is a test to see if you really can controle your bike and, if you know the rules of the road.

    Part A; Test on private terrain.

    first tree points without motor running:

    You enter the examination spot (private terrain) and park your bike in the start-zone. (turn off motor)
    1. Precautions before you get of your bike (that seams for many of us stupid, but it’s not. If you knew how many beginners get of their bikes and forget to put the side-stand)
    2. Controles before starting (you have to wear European improved helmet, gloves, vest with long sleaves, normaly trauses or overall, and boots covering the ankles (not All-Stars converse)
    Controle of the bike. Showing your examinator that you know what all the “buttons and bells” of your bike stand for. (control-warning lamps for example, emergency-stop of the engine etc…..
    3. Maneuvering the bike without the motor is turning. U-turn backwords for example. Controle the mass of the bike (under-estimated by to many of the beginners)

    Then we come to the “active” part (real driving)
    4. slalom, controle of the mass in motion, looking “into the corner”, balance on low speed, control of throttle, use of the right gear, use of the brakes etc
    5. driving an “eight” , driving left-turns immediatly followd by right turns.
    6. Making turns at a speed of minimum 30 km/hour (= about 20 miles/hour) and avoiding a sudden obstacle. Checking if the driver uses the brakes with precision.
    7. Driving at low speed on a straight line
    8. Taking a curve (on both dry and wet surface) , accelerating and stopping within a limmited distance.

    This is followed by

    part B ; driving on the public road.

    You are driving your bike, followed by the examinator (connected by a radio-system).
    The examinator is telling you where to drive and what to do. (Special attention on respecting the rules of the road).
    As long as the examintor doesn’t say anything, your go straight on.
    NO WAY THE EXAMINATOR MAY SET UP A CONFUSING SITUATION ! ! ! (for example telling the pupil to turn to the left if it is forbidden)
    The examinator will look especially how you anticipate different traffic-situations, speed, correctly taking your turns, respecting the road-signs etc.

    When finishing all this……………………, you’re happy ! !

    I hope this will give you a bit of an idea how it’s over here on the “old continent” getting this license.
    I explained what it’s about in Belgium, but from what I saw, that’s also the system in most of the European countries.

    Your’s truely


  77. 77 Nicker Aug 4th, 2008 at 2:00 am

    Wow, Thanks much!

    Man that is some ordeal.
    And everyone takes the same (Government?) classroom test…?
    OK, since you never took that test, you obviously learned how to ride another way.
    So, do you think the classroom experience is better than how you learned…?
    Is the current testing system worth the cost….?
    Are there any meaningful statistic to show how effective the teaching/testing process is…?

    I have to say, having the tester follows the student in a real world driving scenario is a great way to evaluate a rider’s “street smarts.”

    “…8. Taking a curve (on both dry and wet surface) , accelerating and stopping within a limited distance…”

    Interesting. So, how do they do the wet test?
    Is there training for that in the classroom first?

    Great info.
    Thanks again.


  78. 78 gustian Aug 5th, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    Hi Nicker,

    1. the info I gave is stricktly for young people (for example 18 years old) who want to start driving a motorbike.
    There are a few exeptions, for example if you do already have a driver’s license for a car, you are at least 24 years old and are driving yet 2 years with a car. Then you may drive a motorbike with a maximum of 125 cc with less than 25 KW. You don’t have to do all those tests.
    But as I said, only 125 cc and max 25 Kilowatt.

    2. Yes, everybody else must make the same test, ordered by the Government. The schools must also be apporved by the Government.

    3.To speak for myself, I can’t tell you if the fact I teached myself to drive is better than the classroom. As you know (you lived in Europe to) over here we rode a bike as our only “transporting vehicle”. The traffic in those years (I was 18 years old back in 1974) is not to compare with the traffic anno 2008. I must also say that I drove already a bike (VILLIERS 250 CC) when I was bearely 11 years old, but that was in the yard behind our home. I was lucky, I lived in the country by then. So I knew how to drive a bike.
    That’s why I personaly think it’s better that in these day’s, with more traffic and more powerfull
    bikes, it’s good to go to school.

  79. 79 gustian Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    Sorry for the interruption (duty called for a sec)

    Back in time, my father was a biker and from him I learned a lot of things, from driving-essentials to technical parts. Over here, the schools are teaching the students the things that some parents or relatives cann’t do or don’t have the time for it anymore.
    Theorie, first practice on private terrain, and then practice on the public road. The public-road-practice is constantly followed by the monitor. That is one of the most important parts of the teaching (in practice part B in the “real world”) , and I must say, me also, I approve this verry much.
    I heard from many of my friends who had their son or daughter doing the motorschool, that they were very enthousiast about it, and have passed the final tests without problems. So …………..

    As for point 8, the corner in both dry and wet surface, they simply have a part of the private schoolterrain made wet with a firehose. And yes, they are also trying to prepare as much as possible the student with videofilms (both real or simulated)

    We can’t tell if our system is “the best ” or “one of the best”, but I think (and also from what I heard from students themselves) it’s a good thing.
    Of course, you can tell beter than me the difference between the” American Motor-scene” and the “European-one”. You lived in both of these “worlds”.
    Over here, we are also more into sportbikes than in Amerca. Not to forget they are over here in Belgium full-powered (France and Germany restricted to 100 HP) For example, Honda Fireblade and Yamaha R1 have about 180 HP for 170 kg. So you can imagine what that would give if an 18-year-old buys such a “bomb” and have to learn himself to drive it……………………

    See ya,


  80. 80 gustian Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    Sorry ,I have to get straight something

    The school-info is of course also for older-ones (more than18 years) who do not have a driver’s license at all or had their driver’s license for a car after 01/01/1989.


  81. 81 gustian Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

    Oh, I almost forgot, I will try to have some statistics about this stuff, but therefore I have to check out and conatact some of my old fellow-policemen.

    Bye, Gustian

  82. 82 Nicker Aug 6th, 2008 at 1:32 am

    Thanks Gustian,

    “…180 HP for 170 kg. So you can imagine what that would give if an 18-year-old buys such a “bomb” and have to learn himself to drive it…”

    Ya, that’s a real problem.
    And yes, the traffic today is more dangerous here also.


  83. 83 Jim Sep 6th, 2008 at 11:34 pm

    It is interesting to note that the Florida legislature actually amended the law in 2006 to require all new motorcycle applicants for the motorcycle endorsement to attend the training class, and the law went into the Laws of Florida in July 2006 but FOR SOME REASON the legislature stated that the new law would not go into effect until July 1, 2008?

    Can anyone tell me why, if it was so important for the public safety of Floridans as known in June 2006 that this law was put in limbo for two years until it became effective? If it was so important for the safety of Floridian motorcycle riders to need the M$F training, why did they put it on hold for two years? Am I missing something? Does anyone know the background why this occurred? I would think the M$F would have been pushing hard to get the law passed and effective immediately.

    I thoroughly enjoyed reading the posts on this site. I agree that dirt bike riding is a great precursor and proving ground before street legal riding. Wishing you all the best.

    All crashes are preventable IMHO…


  84. 84 Le Fish Sep 15th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Just a Thought-

    Since the Basic Rider Course was made mandatory on July 1, 2008, the price of the course has increased an average of $50 in less than 3 months time.

    All Floridians are concerned about motorcycle safety but the new mandatory status of the BRC may potentially cause more harm than good. This mandate is an obvious benefit to the training schools that keep increasing their prices, but the high cost of the course ($250 average in central Florida) may actually be a deterrent to many individuals, who will instead choose to opt out altogether and take their chances riding without the training or the endorsement. Whereas before the mandate, the low cost of the state initiated written and driving test did not deter individuals from demonstrating at least minimum competency.

    I would be glad to hear others’ thoughts on this as well as recommendations that can be made to our state lawmakers regarding this matter.


  85. 85 Mike Greenwald Sep 15th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
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