Indian Motorcycle New 2012-2013 Models

The announcement on April 19th, 2011 of Polaris Industries buying Indian Motorcycle Limited from the UK based Stellican private equity firm was quite a surprise for many of you. Since then, speculation was high regarding 1- what would happen to the Indian’s plant employees in Kings Mountain, NC  2- what would happen to the exclusive Indian Dealers. 3- What market strategy Polaris would use for its new Indian division. 4- When Polaris would be able to start production of brand new Indians. 5- How the 2012 Indian models, if any, and years beyond would look like. 6- In what range of prices, etc… Here are a few facts I was able to collect.

No official word to know for sure if the NC Indian employees are offered to move with the machinery to the new Polaris/Indian Spirit Lake factory in Iowa. When in 2008 Indian Motorcycle started production, its dealers signed a 5-year agreement of exclusive representation, so expiring in 2013. Although all these Indian dealers welcomed the purchase of Indian by Polaris Industries, they were all extremely concerned in knowing if they will have any bikes to sell in their dealerships for model years 2012 and 2013 (they all seem to have still a few 2010 or at least 2011 models on the show floor.)

It takes a lot of time to re-engineer any existing model like the Indian Chief and a minimum of couple of years to engineer a brand new one. Reverse engineering is the first task and already got started one month ago. I am able to disclose that during the next few days Polaris is going to announce to its dealers that 1- no production is going to continue for the 2011 models, 2- that 2012 Indian models will be available and introduced at the Indian National Dealers Meeting in July in Tennessee (probably the same Indian Chief with slight modifications and new options, maybe at a lower price than 2011 models) 3- that the brand new 2013 year Indian model(s) 100% engineered and manufactured by Polaris will be introduced during summer 2012.  Polaris dealers will be able to sell Indians if they choose to and don’t violate state laws regarding minimum distance required between competing dealers representing the same brand. But situation is less clear regarding Indian dealers who would wish to sell Polaris products. At this point, Polaris says no. Is their agreement of exclusive representation of the Indian brand still enforceable? And even if it was not, it is easy to imagine why Polaris Industries refuse to sell any Polaris products to a competitor of their own dealer network… for now. To follow.

128 Responses to “Indian Motorcycle New 2012-2013 Models”

  1. 1 Patrick May 7th, 2011 at 2:43 pm

    Can’t wait till’ summer 2012. New Scout model?

  2. 2 Doc Robinson May 7th, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    And the beat goes on …

  3. 3 Dave May 7th, 2011 at 5:01 pm

    Indian the original American motorcycle

  4. 4 burnout May 7th, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    I smell something rank. peace

  5. 5 Rider2 May 7th, 2011 at 11:27 pm

    Indian dealers can’t survive on the Indian brand only. Polaris will have to keep the performing ones and close down the ones that are not to allow the brand to be distributed by current Polaris dealers. Should be interesting to watch but it’s an hand full so no big deal

  6. 6 Brett May 8th, 2011 at 7:56 am

    what performing dealers? Last year many started selling many other products like Honda. If you go to the dealer in St. Paul, they have like 8 to 10 bikes on the floor & maybe sell 4 to 6.

    Say what you want, but Indian is dead once again. These are now Victories with Indian fenders. It will be a Victory motor with the Power Plus or Crazy Horse heads.

    I see no reason for Polaris to buy Indian other to end possible competition. I also see no reason to for them to keep it afloat when they have their cruiser & touring bikes already.

    I can envision, just like what Green Bay has. There was an Indian dealer the last time. Well when it all folded in 2003, the building still sits empty & the sign is still up. It is sad to see the place.

    If Kiwi would have bought it, then we would have something to be excited about. In it’s current state, I see nothing exciting. It’s like watching an old dog, who is sick & winding down waiting to die with no one there to put it out of it’s misery.

  7. 7 Lonny Bretcher May 8th, 2011 at 8:20 am

    Guys, you make no sense when you state that the new Indians were not selling well and that Polaris bought Indian to eliminate the competition. You would have made good marketing directors! If you read Cyril correctly, and he knows, Victory will release a brand new 2013 Indian model. Until then, there is no way that Polaris can do more than “repackage” the Chief with some Victory parts. It will save money and the price of the Chiefs is going to go down. Regarding Kiwi, sorry but his bikes are fake Indians, just look alike. I like them but they don’t have an Indian title, just a title of “custom motorcycle assembled from parts”. A real Indian is the one made by the Indian factory with an Indian title. So, a new Indian Chief is an Indian. A Kiwi motorcycle is just a Kiwi motorcycle. No disrespect for Mike Tomas. Your personal taste about an Indian model is another story.

  8. 8 Cantrell May 8th, 2011 at 8:23 am

    Speculation….Think I’ll just wait and see what happens. Mean time I’m hot on the trail for a ’71 Shovelhead!


  9. 9 Richie May 8th, 2011 at 8:54 am

    Don’t forget that Polaris can’t “miss” a new Indian because it would bring a bad image to Victory. Polaris strategy should be to be as far as possible in styling from any Victory model. 2 different segments with very different clients. A way to widen market coverage. See GMC and Cadillac, BMW and Mini, and so on. Harley not happy.

  10. 10 Markus May 8th, 2011 at 9:24 am

    Brett…”what performing dealers?”
    The dealership in Charlotte is a Top 100 dealer…as in all brands. all motorcycle dealers in the country, for the last two years in a row.
    Don’t use the MN dealer as an example, they aren’t one of Indian’s top performers.
    Look at some of the other dealers, too. The dealership in Tokyo, for example, is huge.

    Polaris has already promised that Indian and Victory will be maintained as separate entities, and is planning for the next two years models, so obviously, they don’t plan on shutting down the brand.
    It will be interesting to see what develops though, since you are correct…they are both heavy cruisers, and occupy a similar market niche.
    Some speculation has Victory coming out with a line of sportbikes and such, and being more in direct competition with the Japanese.

    Either way, this is about to get real interesting.

  11. 11 Iron Horse May 8th, 2011 at 9:46 am

    Can’t wait to see Polaris’s rendition of the Chief in summer of 2012. Hopefully, they drop the “short fendered” model from the line and just concentrate on the more iconic full fendered Indians. A Scout model at a lower price point would be a good thing also.

  12. 12 Art Welch May 8th, 2011 at 9:48 am

    Markus.. I’m the owner of Indian Motorcycle of the Twin Cities, MN.. WE ARE one of the top performing Dealers. We are also a Mono Brand Dealership. Which means we sell Indian Only (for now).

    The Charlotte dealer was a corporate store built and paid by corporate. Of course its going to be in the “Top 100”

    All dealers that are currently Mono Brand dealers are the TOP performing dealers.

  13. 13 Art Welch May 8th, 2011 at 10:04 am
  14. 14 Art Welch May 8th, 2011 at 10:05 am

    oh and feel free to use us as an example of a TOP PERFORMING DEALER

  15. 15 1550tc May 8th, 2011 at 10:47 am

    Polaris bought a brand , logo and the bikes are just a way to make money………the dealer net works is going to nuts to try and put together and who keep and eliminate…… our market some trailer boat and f–k knows what else carried them, now they have their traditional top 100 polaris dealer carrying them.

    When victory started out they jammed any dealer they could find. In our market this dealers will now have 2 additional lines to their Jap line to offer their customers so Indian is a great new addition to their store.

  16. 16 MN Chief Rider May 8th, 2011 at 11:04 am

    I had just read this article 2 days ago. Nice article by the way. I’ve known Art and his store staff for the past two years. Although at first Art pissed me off more than twice, I’m one of the few that actually got to know him and didn’t make a judgement within the first 5 min. Not saying he pissed me off within the first 5 min, but AFTER I bought mike bike, there were a few promises made, that I blamed him for. As time went on, I realized, it wasn’t him I should have been mad at, but the over promises made by Indian in KM, NC. I can’t tell you, from my perspective, how KM started up these dealerships, and hung them all up to dry with parts/accessories being back ordered up to 3 months!!!
    CAN YOU SEE WHY I WAS PISSED? 3 months? Now 3 months isn’t a long time when you have a part thats custom, or hard to find, but this folks was a backrest and passenger pad in distressed leather. Premium bike? YES. Premium Service on KM’s part? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
    Art and his Staff, decided to start going to other sources to get things done. These guys have always been friendly, they go the extra mile, and one little tidbit of that article is 100% true, you may not like everything Art Welch has to say, but he really will tell you the truth, even if you don’t want to hear it. I’ve never known anyone to know his customers so well, that when they walk in the door, not only does he know their name, but he knows what year and what color their bikes are. This guy is there over 60 hours a week.
    I really hope Polaris sees the value of keeping their Mono Brand dealerships for their dealers and their customers. I for one, being an “09” Indian Owner, see the value in ALL Mono Brand Dealers.
    It allows you to focus on the brand and the customer.

  17. 17 SB3Nitro May 8th, 2011 at 12:06 pm

    First thing, I’m a Vic rider, and have been since 2008. I too, was looking for something different and better that what everybody else has,HD. I have two Vics now and can’t say enough good about them. I have seen several Indians in the past 5 or 6 years and they have all been the soft tail frame with S&S motors, I don’t know much about them but I don’t think these were real Indians. MN Chief Rider, I have heard the stories about parts and support from the factory level, three months for a back rest???
    Indian has not had an owner with deep pockets before, but they do now, they also have engineering and motivation. Look what has happened to the Vic line in twelve years, the first TC’s almost have a little Indian look to them, with out the skirts. I think the biggest change that will happen to Indian is the price, It has to come down, and I think Polaris will take care of this. I would buy one if they were more reasonably priced. I wish them the best, maybe the parts will be more readily available…

  18. 18 rogue phil May 8th, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    Said it once, I’ll say it again, American Made!

  19. 19 Seymour May 8th, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    If the Indian name must stay alive, I’m happy enough that Victory owns it. You should just want to see the name Indian on a bike that deserves the name. A B-I-K-E. Actually, now that I write that, shouldn’t we call motorcycles MOKEs? Bike is short for Bicycle, a motorcycle is a completely different thing. M-O-K-E. There.

  20. 20 Fredp May 8th, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    None of the employees who built Indians at Kings Mt. were asked to transfer to Polaris? I see a “cultural” change for Indian down the road. Leave your tattoos at the door, please. You now work for Polaris!

  21. 21 Fredp May 8th, 2011 at 5:36 pm

    GO GET ‘EM ART!!!! You got to have ONE of the nicest Indian dealerships in the nation. Geez, Comparing Charlotte dealership down the road from the factory (which I’m sure poured money into that place to impress and invest consumers) can’t be compared to a family owned dealership that puts their lives and reputation on the line everyday.

  22. 22 SB3Nitro May 8th, 2011 at 6:28 pm


  23. 23 INDIAN FOR SURE May 8th, 2011 at 7:05 pm

    Polaris will not be putting Victory engines in Indian Motorcycles.

  24. 24 Tommy Boy May 8th, 2011 at 7:50 pm

    What an ingenious move by Victory!!!! They now have the world-renowned Indian brand to compliment the Victory brand to garner a share of the exploding overseas cruiser market.
    Harley is assuredly scratching their a_ _es and wondering how the heck this happened. Indian was dead 3 times over – to never, never, never ever again compete with the Motor Company. Just shows what a corporate board made up of Motorcycling Enthusiasts vs a corporate board made up of former Auto Execs can do when it comes to delivering on the proverbial needs of the customer, the employee and the corporation. A BIG VICTORY for POLARIS and a big wake-up call for the leadership at Harley-Davidson.

  25. 25 Toby May 8th, 2011 at 8:08 pm

    Indian was never a competitor of Victory. Completely different segments. Different demographic, and way far apart in price range. It may compliment the Victory line if Polaris does this right. Franchise and dealer rights vary by state and will be hard to break without a bankruptcy. I really hope that Polaris does not just slap a wide fender and new rocker covers on a Victory and call it an Indian. I think if they do that they they will drive a stake into the heart of Indian for good.

  26. 26 kc cheef May 8th, 2011 at 8:25 pm

    Well it should have been a pretty swift move from Kings Mountain to Spirit Lake.
    The Indian “Factory” in Kings mountain didn’t consist of much more than a few so called engine assembly tables out in the middle of the “factory” floor. Couple of mechanics tool boxes. A couple of battery powered drills–a few pneumatic tools, a Tire machine and a balancer. Little more to it than that–but I’ve been in Harley Dealerships whose service area was way more impressive than the Kings Mountain assembly plant.
    Don’t know from what I saw I’d have ever called KM a “factory”. More like a bare bones assembly point.

  27. 27 John White May 8th, 2011 at 9:49 pm

    Thanks Cyril for keeping us updated. As others have stated, Polaris is a publicly traded company. Financial statements will be visible and available for all to read. Anyone can own a part of it. It’s back in American hands thank god.

    Looks like the Gilroy/Stellican-Tim Prentice designed motorcycle with a 45 degree V-twin is about to be discontinued. Too bad, especially for the 6-foot and taller crowd that found comfort on that platform- which is a full 8 inches longer than a Road King.

    Should Steven Julius and his partner Heese get credit for raising the Indian brand to the point where a high powered company like Polaris would take interest?

    With regards getting ride of short fenders and “sticking with traditional skirts” …………uh? Indian was skirt less for nearly 50 years!

    Looking over the financials one can see that Polaris does not make money on motorcycles. However they do very well in other areas. They need a brand name to go with their sound engineering.

    I see an all new Indian without the Harley (45 degree engine) flavor. a qualified MBA is at the helm and this means thoughtful strategy is in order.

    Cyril’s blog does not answer the long term issues facing the Stellican dealers. If things stay flat then it is going to be a rough ride.

    The 45 degree twin belongs to Harley. So, what, they can have it. Polaris, give us what we would see if Indian of yesteryear was still alive. Give us something competitive.


  28. 28 Sheridan May 9th, 2011 at 1:51 am

    I’m really looking forward to seeing what Polaris comes up with for their brand new 2013 Indian model line up, so summer 2012 can’t come quick enough! Like so many other people I’ve got my fingers crossed for an Indian Scout and hoping if they do, that they price it around the Victory/HD price range so it’s more affordable for the masses.

  29. 29 Scalper May 9th, 2011 at 8:32 am

    Art W – as an Indian dealer you should know that the Charlotte dealership was not paid for by Stellican (corporate). Mr. Moses owns that dealership outright and as far as I know will remain in Charlotte with the dealership. If I’m wrong, show me some proof, but I know Moses and doubt seriously the dealership would remain if it was owned by corporate Indian. Moses would pack up and leave it empty just as I would if I had no ownership in it.

    John W – Glad to see you have some good words to say for a change about the ownership of Indian. But, I can only think that you HOPE the currently PowerPlus is history simply because you own the copycat VPlus engine and Crazyhorse.

  30. 30 Horseman May 9th, 2011 at 8:47 am

    John White and KC Cheef statements are always full of BS. They just want to look like great business people and motorcycle industry insiders which they are not and will never be. They never made it in the business and are just bitter duds trying to discredit anything Indian.

  31. 31 cwglide May 9th, 2011 at 10:31 am

    Your absolutely right Toby. Indian and Victory are two different market segments. So the reason they bought Indian was to get rid of the competition will not fly. I suspect they bought Indian to increase market share with the iconic American brand of Indian Motorcycle. With Polaris deep pockets and engineering they will get the price point down, so more dealers will buy. I certainly hope so, that Chief was priced out. For that money one could buy a CVO. I’ll venture to say that Polaris is the best thing to ever happen to Indian. Better an American motorcycle MFG company owning Indian then a chemical company like Dupont, remember what happen then? I wish all the luck to Polaris!!!

  32. 32 cwglide May 9th, 2011 at 11:50 am

    Correction John White, it was Indian that was first to release to production a V-Twin motor in 1907not HD. HD released theirs in 1911. I believe Curtis was the first that designed the V-Twin from a aviation radial motor.

  33. 33 Lyle May 9th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    I think JW’s point is that the 45 degree V-Twin belongs to Harley. Indian never had a 45 V-Twin until Gilroy started making them in the 90’s using Harley clone engines. Curtiss manufactured the first USA made V-twin motorcycle not HD or Indian. He made motorcycles before making airplanes. Indian was not the first V-twin or the first motorcycle manufacturer in the US.

  34. 34 Lyle May 9th, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    Curtiss made the first American V-Twin production motorcycle. And the engine was designed for a motorcycle. Not Indian or HD. Indian never made a 45 degree V-Twin.

  35. 35 kc cheef May 9th, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    Hey Scalper.
    Are you sure the VPlus is the copy cat?
    Or are you just making an ASSumption?

  36. 36 kc cheef May 9th, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    Looks to me like KM did a way better job of discrediting Indian than JW or I could ever think of doing.

  37. 37 Matt May 9th, 2011 at 9:05 pm

    Indian made a 42° V-twin in 1907. Non-the-less it was a V-twin that all others are based upon. Indian has always been the bench mark… That’s the gospel right there.

  38. 38 Matt May 9th, 2011 at 9:22 pm

    Curtiss started manufacturing in 1902 using a single cylinder. He was like the Boss Hoss of the turn of the century. Im not even sure what I consider a Boss Hoss, they’re just silly to me.

  39. 39 Rider2 May 10th, 2011 at 1:30 am

    It is very easy to be a top whatever dealer when your brand has 15 of them to cover the entire US and 3 guys overseas selling 10 bikes a year. Everybody knows an Indian dealer doesn’t live on selling Indian. The guys in Chicago have 10+ brands under an Indian dealership…. a joke. This is probably what Polaris is going to clean up. If those guys want to stay in business, they’ll have to sell Polaris and Indian and that’s it. No HD on the floor or VTX or Goldwing stuff. And it doesn’t matter if they are/were performing like our good friend Art Welch here (he still brings his 3 best customers to comment on this blog).

    Indian has a bad rep since Gilroy. For some reason, people still think it’s a valuable product which is not. If it was, CCI, Drag etc… would have an Indian section in their books and Arlen Ness would be developing after marketing stuff for them.

    There is probably some strategy behind the purchase. Polaris didn’t buy Indian to increase its dealer network or for the technology. They already build better bikes than Indian and probably HD. Are Indian riders going to switch to Polaris? I mean, the couple of hundreds guys who bought one last year? I don’t think so. They are not going to put a Polaris engine in any new Indian models but they will very certainly adapt their current engines to the brand. They don’t really have a bike that actually look like a HD. Indian is the closest they will get.

    Maybe they’ll hire some old employees from Excelsior Henderson to do their marketing and run that brand down as fast as they can.

  40. 40 Pat#2 May 10th, 2011 at 7:04 am

    I thought it was Indian “MOTOcycle.”. No R. Or was that changed a long time ago?

  41. 41 IndianFan May 10th, 2011 at 7:17 am

    Art Welch has a nice store in Minneapolis. But it wasn’t built from the profits of that store as most business would do. He has a sugar momma who helps him look the part of a big wheeler dealer. If making money were required he’d be back at home by now. I’ve seen the same Indians on his floor for years. How many birthdays do the motorcycles have? Art, give us the facts. How many New Indians did you sell last year that makes you their “top dealer”? The fact is, I’ve heard you make the same claim for all of the other brands you’ve sold.

  42. 42 Mad River Motor Company May 10th, 2011 at 7:26 am


    Many ex-Excelsior Henderson employees work for victory and have for a long time.

  43. 43 INDIAN FOR SURE May 10th, 2011 at 8:31 am

    My favorite Thing on This Blog, is when people challenge you with a comment (the type-writer tough guy) but DON’T state who they are. What I like even MORE than that, is when a person makes a comment AS IF THEY KNOW YOU.

    “INDIAN FAN” It’s very apparent, that you HAVEN’T been to my shop, being that it’s not in Minneapolis. ITS IN ST PAUL. Let me call you what you really are.. lets change it to.. DING DONG.. … yeah that sounds a little better..

    So Ding Dong! I make no secret as to how many units I’ve sold. If you were at our INDIAN ARROWHEAD RIDERS GROUP MEETING this past Saturday (oh wait! you wouldn’t have found our store since you thought it was on the OTHER SIDE of the cities), you wouldn’t have gotten the actual answer.

    MY sugar momma?????
    My mother??? Oh yeah.. thats right.. the OTHER Investor in our shop. The other OWNER of the shop.. well Ding Dong.. I’m very sorry that you didn’t have a momma who loved you and supported you and trusted you all the way like mine did. And if you actually read my comment.. I said we were ONE of the Top performing dealers. I never claimed to be THE top performing Dealer. <—-Why don't you read up THERE Ding Dong.. It even has pictures and big letters.. you might actually be able to follow through with reading it.
    I make no secret as to who the muscle is behind our dealership. It's one of the reasons KM made us a Dealer. Because they knew we could carry the brand. (Notice the word *WE*)

    and MN CHIEF RIDER.. Thanks for the compliments.. I DO have an Excellent Staff, I couldn't ask for anyone better.. Like I said.. in the article.. Momma is the muscle.. WE,The staff are the Brains..

    Great to have a momma like I do. Ding Dong.. I'm sorry you don't.

  44. 44 IndianFan May 10th, 2011 at 10:18 am

    Yet again you claim to be transparent on how much product you have sold but you didn’t answer the question. How many Indians did one of Indians top dealers sell? You may call me names, but all I want to know is your basis for calling yourself a top dealer for Indian.

  45. 45 Art Welch May 10th, 2011 at 11:17 am

    Whats your real FULL NAME? And why even “claim” to have been in my shop when it’s not in Minneapolis. Grow a pair.

  46. 46 IndianFan May 10th, 2011 at 11:42 am

    What difference does my name make? Why not answer the sales question. Or do you just make wild claims about being the biggest or best or one of the best dealer, but no provide any support for your claim. On more than one of your posts here you claim to be one of the largest for the types you’ve represented. Should we all assume you are full of yourself? Or will you give us some idea of your volume.

  47. 47 Art Welch May 10th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    When you give your real name and contact information.. I’d be happy to answer your questions. =o)

    Here’s mine.

    Art Welch
    Indian Motorcycle of the Twin Cities

  48. 48 Amanda May 10th, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    Will Polaris will design a new engine or will they use the Hoka Hey Motorcycle Co. engine?

  49. 49 Lonny Bretcher May 10th, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    Hoka Hey Motorcycle Engine? LOL. It was another John White’s jokes.

  50. 50 IndianFan May 10th, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    It seems as though you’ve misinterpreted my comments. Im interested in knowing what volume a good Indian dealer was selling. I guess I’ve called you out and now you think calling me out someone works to your advantage. No one knows me nor do they care. But I do find it of interest how you called Donn Proudfoot out and demanded answers from him. Now that you’re being asked similar questions you refuse. Can’t say that it was unexpected.

  51. 51 Chrome Pyrope May 10th, 2011 at 1:52 pm

    Stellican has sold the brand because of economic overhead & the cost of marketing a “new” brand is cost prohibative for this current US buyer market. $$$500+ for a leather jacket with logo; come on dude… Stellican borrowed funds against thier first brand; Chris-craft boats in order to purchase the Indian Brand rights. Picture 2005ish= a Borrowers Market; housing, autos, the future…. and brand names. A borrowers Wet-Dream… Now, The market has now really turn negative these past 18 months; HD moving to India, Chris-Craft going under from N.C., Indian MC stuck with marketing prices from 2008-10 levels, Big Dog gone. USA Homes worth 2/3 from 2009 levels. Stellican had to pay the lending piper for its over-due bills and offered the Indian Brand for $$ sell @ a huge investment loss. It was offered in-house via investment partners & Polaris was in that inner circle of quiet buyers. Maybe the “spirit” with return….

  52. 52 Art Welch May 10th, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    @ Indian”fan”… *yawn*.. Next!

  53. 53 kc cheef May 10th, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    @Lonny Betcher.
    I’ve never heard of a Hoka Hey Engine.
    As for another of John Whites jokes?
    The engine is called the Crazy Horse VPlus.
    Pretty damn nice.
    If you want a look at one just tune into the Discovery Channel.
    Paul Jr. is using them exclusively is what I’m hearing.
    Pretty nice power plant.
    I plan on getting one into my Kings Mountain Cheef soon.
    Hey Lonny–no joke.
    Just call John at Crazy Horse–he’ll sell you one.

  54. 54 kc cheef May 10th, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    Hey Art.
    Ignore the s–t stirrers.
    I’m thinking there are some fans of the old Factory Dealership pulling your chain.

  55. 55 Art Welch May 10th, 2011 at 3:02 pm

    Actually it sounds like Jay Ridley to me.. lol.. whats funny is he said my dealership was in Minneapolis. oh well.. no big deal. I’ll spend my time on a more serious conversation.

  56. 56 IndianFan May 10th, 2011 at 8:13 pm

    Minneapolis or not… Ridley or not…. What sales volume made you a top dealer?

  57. 57 Art Welch May 10th, 2011 at 9:29 pm

    *yawwwwwn* Well it sure wasn’t the Ridley’s, THATS for sure, It sure wasn’t the Proudfoots which were int he same crooked boat as the Ridley’s, and it sure wasn’t YOU =o)

    Give me a call! lets………………. chat.


  58. 58 Art Welch May 10th, 2011 at 9:30 pm

    *crickey cricket* ….. *cricket cricket*

  59. 59 Bad Company May 10th, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    It’s a sad time in america. Then there is alot of sad times in america right now. Indian Chief is a sign of competition with HD. I hope alot of people don’t lose their jobs over this one. A thing that might save this industry is if they ran a TM Custom Seat with leaf spring suspension, an ultimate ride on any machine. Bad Co.

  60. 60 IndianFan May 10th, 2011 at 10:22 pm

    Yelp. I thought you were just a self promoter. Here I thought you were going add something of substance to the conversation. Instead you want to try and call me out. No one cares who I am. I thought it would be interesting to know how many bikes one of Indian’s top dealers sold. Guess that will remain your secret. Maybe no one but me cared anyway.

  61. 61 bubba May 10th, 2011 at 10:59 pm

    All I know is I wish I could afford one… the looks of em. It’d be nice to see Polaris run with the ball on this one, they’re probably the first real deal outfit to have bought Indian and has the capability to turn it into a real HD competitor over the next decade. If its one thing the new Indian bikes have is good looks and physical size, …what it needs is a talented and ambitious corp. to bring it to fruition. (along with a few smaller sportier models to compete against the Sportster).

  62. 62 bubba May 10th, 2011 at 11:13 pm

    QUOTE: “The 45 degree twin belongs to Harley. So, what, they can have it. Polaris, give us what we would see if Indian of yesteryear was still alive. Give us something competitive.



  63. 63 Indian Owner May 10th, 2011 at 11:28 pm

    Hey Indian Fan, how much money do you make? And what do you do for a living? What have you done in your life that makes a difference in a good way in the lives of others? Make sure you have proof to back up what you say if you respond at all.

  64. 64 Lost Rabbit May 11th, 2011 at 5:44 am

    So, help me out with this Art. I am having difficulty understanding:

    You loudly proclaimed that YOU are now the “New Indian Motorcyle Flagship Dealership” (I did get that quote right, didn’t I?)….but then, here you are, saying the Charlotte dealership is the corporate dealership so it’s not fair to compare your shop to them.

    So…which is it, Art?
    (And who was it that told you that you were the new flagship dealer, anyway?
    Or did that spring out of your head, based on the fact that you have the dealership closest to Polaris?)

    Either the Charlotte deaerlship IS the flagship dealership…
    OR they are the top Indian dealership in both sales and service.
    Either way, you have been…ahem…less than truthful, shall we say?

    Not surprising, considering you have KC Cheef…who has already been banned from this website once for his behavior…defending you. With friends like that….

  65. 65 kc cheef May 11th, 2011 at 7:41 am

    Lost Rabbit?
    Sad sad sad.
    Talk about folks who just can’t seem to grow a set.
    I don’t see where I’m defending Art much except telling it like I see it.
    Tell you the truth the few times Art and I have met we didn’t especially get along.
    I base my judgement of him and his dealership on his customers opinions of him.
    What is it you base you opinion on Wabbit?

  66. 66 Mike May 11th, 2011 at 8:07 am


    You seem a bit lost. Who ever said that the dealership in Charlotte was a Flagship dealership? Wasn’t that self proclaimed? Or maybe it was meant to be the flagship dealership because it was the first one built? What about the dealers who actually invested in their dealerships? The ones that actually paid for their dealership? If you do your research correctly, the “Flagship Dealership” was a rented dealership owned by corporate. Who knows where it is now. Owned by Polaris?
    I actually feel bad for the guys who were promised a ton of sales who actually invested in Indian.

    I’ve been to the dealership in St Paul, MN 3 times. Top Notch guys over there. Feel likes home when I walk in. I Also had a chance to sit in on one of their Indian Arrowhead Riders Group meetings back 2 years ago. Mosty from who I met, made up of a lot of former Military backround people.

    I can tell you that no dealer, not even the self proclaimed “flagship dealership” in Charlotte, could support their properties payments unless they were well backed by investors. And of course, having corporate own the store, sure saves you from having to make a payments on a Mortgage. It’s going to help someone propel ahead and make more money and become a “Top 100” Dealer. Do your research. Or Maybe Cyril could answer this question. Cyril, can you confirm that the self proclaimed “flagship dealership” in Charlotte was actually owned by corporate?

  67. 67 Dustin May 11th, 2011 at 9:09 am

    Mark Moses did not own the dealership. He owned the business inside the dealership.

  68. 68 Route 66 May 11th, 2011 at 9:17 am

    Cyril, Is this True? We want to know. As far as I’m concerened Any Flagship status should be given to the people who actually invested heavily into the franchise. Why would that kind of status be given to someone who only rented a building?

  69. 69 SJB May 11th, 2011 at 10:19 am

    The Charlotte store was owned and backed by Indian Corporate. Mark Moses is good at what he does but could not have financed such an elaborate dealership. Therefore; I do agree that they should not be compared to other dealerships. I know for FACT that shortly after the Minnesota Indian store opened, they were calling other dealerships trying to dump the new Indians they had because they hadn’t sold any and were struggling to keep their doors open.

  70. 70 Juanhunglow May 11th, 2011 at 11:14 am

    How funny is it that internet bullies all seem to find each other..
    CK Cheef and (F)Art … wait until Polaris gets tired of his antics…back to hustling min-bikes for him..

    what a bunch of blow hards…nobody takes you clowns seriously anymore.

    Twin Cities Indian investors should be embarrassed.

  71. 71 LOL May 11th, 2011 at 11:45 am

    Hey Juan, sounds like we got a bitter MN boy in the house. lol You still mad? Get over it.

  72. 72 kc cheef May 11th, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    WOW Mike.
    Good reading there.
    Those are some very interesting questions you ask.
    Good luck getting an answer.
    Smoke and Mirrors is the name of the game when dealing with Indian – either the Gilroy version or the KM version.
    Lot of what folks were led to believe kind of turned out to be a little mixed up along the way.
    @Juanhunglow-internet bullies?
    You must be mighty delicate.
    Lost Rabbit?
    Think I understand now.

  73. 73 Art Welch May 11th, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    SJB, don’t know where you’re getting your facts, but they sure weren’t from us. All dealers struggled and were over promised things by KM. Of course it didn’t help that Indian opened at the wrong time.. but hey! Guess what.. we’re still here and as far as I know with Polaris giving us the support we’ve been giving and visiting our shop and riders group last Saturday to do a lot of Q&A, things are looking mighty bright! =o)

    NOW!.. as far as everything else goes on the blog so far..
    WOW… You definately gotta take the good with the bad. Thank you for everyone’s criticisms, opinions, and also the compliments. Everything you say negative always helps us grow to correct a few things. we always wanna know what we’re doing right and wrong (i’m sure this will open up a few comments on the wrong, because the ones that do comment negatively are SOOO perfect).

    REGARDLESS…I’d like to take this opportunity to Invite everyone to our 9th Annual and now National Indian Motorcycle Ride in show and 9th Annual Ride for Childrens School supplies. check us out at for event information. Please come help us raise school supplies (NOT MONEY) for children in need. Last years Donations are going to the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota where the annual family income is only $4000/yr. We have no donated globally, out of state, and here locally as well. If anyone has any other ideas as to where to donate where help is needed, please let us know and we’d be happy to take a look!

    All negative, and positive comments are always welcome! Thanks for the interesting reading everyone.

  74. 74 SJB May 11th, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    Well Art, I happen to be in on one of the phone calls you made to another dealer in approximately May 2008 trying to get rid of inventory. I’m glad that things have turned around for you and your business is doing well.

  75. 75 SJB May 11th, 2011 at 5:02 pm

    I’m sorry correction……May 2009

  76. 76 Art Welch May 11th, 2011 at 6:19 pm

    Actually.. I believe i was trying to sell you my dealership.. Not inventory lol.

  77. 77 Art Welch May 11th, 2011 at 6:19 pm

    but yes.. things have turned around for all of us I think…. I hope. =o)

  78. 78 John White May 11th, 2011 at 8:01 pm

    From John White
    To CWglide

    Responding to your comment below:

    Correction John White, it was Indian that was first to release to production a V-Twin motor in 1907not HD. HD released theirs in 1911. I believe Curtis was the first that designed the V-Twin from a aviation radial motor………………..

    Thanks for the correct history lesson. As you know, Kiwi is making that V-Twin you speak of and its angle is 42 degrees. As you may recall, when Gilroy put the S&S engine in their first Indian’s back in 1999, the feedback was not good from devoted 1901 to 1953 fans. I think Lyle did a great job of following up on your comment.

    Lyle wrote correctly: I think JW’s point is that the 45 degree V-Twin belongs to Harley. Indian never had a 45 V-Twin until Gilroy started making them in the 90′s using Harley clone engines. Curtiss manufactured the first USA made V-twin motorcycle not HD or Indian. He made motorcycles before making airplanes. Indian was not the first V-twin or the first motorcycle manufacturer in the US.

    Now, following up on this I am wondering what Victory will do regarding engines. Will they stick with the 45 degree V-Twin PowerPlus originally designed by Mr. Correct of Thunderheart, or will they use their overhead valve, super tall lanky Victory engine? I am hoping they come up with something new. I hope they avoid the 45 degree engine all together. I also hope they avoid that tall overhead cam Victory engine because the unwanted height of that engine takes away from the lower profile (and center of gravity) that Indian motorcycles of yesteryear had in their DNA. The last thing I see is a 42 degree engine……………..just not going to happen!


  79. 79 John White May 11th, 2011 at 8:10 pm

    Has anyone looked at the Polais financial statement year ending? Beta is 1.77

    They are paying only 1.34 percent interest on their debt. Wow, I wish I could get money for so cheap. These large publicly traded companies enjoy super low interest rates.

    They had 200 million in short term and 200 million in long term and the total interest payments were………………..well look for yourself. The cost for them to buy Indian would have been a bleep on the radar screen………..nearly zero! Polaris is solid. wow! The Indian brand has never had it so good.

  80. 80 John White May 11th, 2011 at 8:11 pm

    correction, 100 million short term and 100 million LT!

  81. 81 kindoffunny May 11th, 2011 at 8:56 pm

    Did I call this in the “The Guts And Glory Rally Postponed Or Canceled? blog” or what? LOL

    Apr 30th, 2011
    “If this were about Indian Motorcycles we would have heard from KC Cheef or John White by now.
    Where are they? They always seem to know the hows and whats of companys they have nothing to do with but have a blog about something that is theirs … ‘no comment’.”

  82. 82 IndianFan May 11th, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    Wouldn’t inventory come with the dealership? Your business savvy is inspiring. It’s classic that I asked you to qualify your claims and you come back attacking me. Guess that makes people want to buy a motorcycle from you. #angerissues

  83. 83 Art Welch May 11th, 2011 at 11:36 pm

    Hey Indian Fan.. why don’t you come to our charity event in August.. And present yourself to me, and come along on the ride to help out some kids?

  84. 84 Lost Rabbit May 12th, 2011 at 4:55 am

    Lots of noise from Art’s apologists, but no direct answers from Mr Welch himself.
    Shocking, I tell you. Shocking. (Rolling eyes.)

    I do have to admit, though, Art, it takes some seriously large stones to march yourself into Branson for the Iron Indian Riders rally, when you have dissed them like dogs for the past couple of years.
    You remember the IIRA, don’t you, Art?
    The largest modern Indian motorcycle riders group in the world?
    The ones whose club patch you said you were going to wipe your (expletive) with?
    Do you think any of those boys remember that?

    The charity work is nice, too, Art, really…too bad YOU didn’t elect to support the IIRA’s charity work, or the IRG’s.
    You remember the IRG, don’t you, Art?
    That’s the factory-sanctioned riders group that Indian Motorcycle asked you to form a chapter of?
    And you refused, is that not correct?

    Art, you have a bad habit of burning bridges, have you noticed that?
    Sometimes while you are still STANDING on them.
    How many people at Indian have you alienated, big time?
    No wonder you’re so thrilled about Polaris…you think you’ll be able to just waltz away from all that bad blood you generated at King’s Mountain.
    Maybe…. maybe not…. karma catches up with all of us, sooner or later, Art.

    Have you also noted that none of the other Indian dealers finds it necessary to be on the internet, calling people ‘Ding Dongs’?
    “DING DONGS”?!?!
    Really, Art.

    A respectful aside to Cyril Huze:
    Cyril, I know you have multiple inside contacts at Indian. You could, I am sure, shed some light on this, since Indian and the other dealers are obviously staying out of it, intentionally, most likely.
    1. Does corporate own the dealership in Charlotte?
    2. Who are the top performing Indian dealerships?
    I think everyone will respect the answers, if they come from you.

    (Oh, and KC Cheef…sorry, but no cigar. Not Last Resort. I DID get a big hoot out of that though… for a variety of reasons. Lost Rabbit is a reference to the Treating of Dancing Rabbit, and what Native Americans LOST as a result of it. Look it up. It’s a pretty profound little bit of history. Yeah, I’m Native. A real one. Not adopted.)

  85. 85 IndianFan May 12th, 2011 at 6:20 am

    Ok. Will do.

  86. 86 kc cheef May 12th, 2011 at 7:43 am

    Lost Rabbit.
    You seem to know a lot of the history of the IIRA, but do you know the rest of the story on the IIRA?How it kind of changed hands from the original founders?
    I’m guessing if you’re not Last Resort you’re one of his puppets.
    Hell as for Art being an Indian Dealer and getting on the internet and calling people DING DONGS?
    Well take a look around.
    He’s not the only Indian Dealer out there expressing an opinion.
    Have you seen the picture of Mark Moses standing in his parking lot on the opening day of his dealership?
    Grabbing his crotch and flipping the bird?
    Surrounded by?
    Yep–a few of those IIRA boys you seem to admire so much.
    Hell one of the IIRA boys flipping the bird alongside old Mark is the head of the Charity that you all seem so proud of.
    You may be right on the IIRA being the largest Indian Riders group.
    Even that might be argued if the membership numbers would ever be released. IIRA roll isn’t known — that’s a closely guarded secret.
    The PUBLIC board is likely the largest internet group of Indian Riders but last I knew it was completely seperate from the IIRA.
    Public Board at one time was for the RIDERS to be able to air and discuss their complaints on the bikes Gilroy Made.
    For the past 4 years or so it has sold out to Kings mountain in hopes of becoming the FACTORY board.
    But you do kind of gloss over the rest of that story also.
    How many Indian Riders has Art alienated?
    Likely not as many as IIRA has.
    Good Old Boys?
    Formed to oppose the direction the IIRA took.
    Lone Wolf Riders?
    Dropped out because of the secrecy the IIRA wants to hide behind concerning its numbers and finances.
    Then you get to looking at the old names the Public board and IIRA has lost, and the list would be way longer than Arts list.
    As for Art forming his own Riders Group?
    What’s the problem there?
    Seems that bunch is pretty tight.
    Seems they welcome all riders in.
    Seems they do some pretty good charity work.
    As for the Factoy starting the IRG back up>
    As a member of the factory IRG when I rode the 09 I was eligible for the benefits.
    Called the tow service once to have the bike picked up off the highway where it died on me.
    Tow service whose number was given to me by Indian KM General Manager didn’t have a clue who the IIRA was.
    I paid the tow myself and waited 6 months to be reimbursed.

    As for you being Native American?
    Good on ya.
    I have some blood myself.
    Mixed right in there with Irish-German-and who the hell knows what else.
    Don’t know what that has to do with Indian Motorcycles though.

    As for Cyrils long list at Indian?
    My guess is Cyril has as hard a time getting true answers out of that list as anyone else asking them a question.
    Indian never has been and isn’t likely to be real concerned over answering questions truthfully.
    I’m guessing they aren’t allowed to answer a question truthflly if it is damaging to the company.
    Hell take a look back on this blog, and you’ll likely find a lot of statements made in good faith and through direct communication that didn’t exactly turn out to be truthful.
    That’s the way of Indian Motorcycle, and has been the way for 60 years or so.

  87. 87 Cyril Huze May 12th, 2011 at 8:54 am

    I read your comments above and the questions you asked me.

    1- Flagship. Originally a word to qualify the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, typically the first, largest, fastest, most heavily armed, etc. Today, the word is used in a metaphoric form to describe the most prestigious, the highest profile store, the most expensive outlet or most well known by the media. A flagship store and business may or may not belong to the corporation whose brand it represents.

    2- Mark Moses was originally employed by Indian as a department manager. One of his tasks was to assist in the design/build of the “Flagship” Indian dealership. I know very well that he participated in the actual land/real estate purchase, external building design, store fixture designs, choice of materials, floor plan, managed construction. signage, landscaping, etc. I visited the construction site with Indian executives and know for sure that the plan was to sell the dealership to a local operator, that many were interviewed with no viable candidates that met all the imposed requirements. It was asked to Mark Moses if he would be interested in ‘owning’ the dealership. He said yes, resigning from his position at Indian Motorcycle. His efforts were expected by Indian KM to inspire, and as a matter of fact guided in the design and conception of all other Indian Motorcycle dealers, here and abroad.

    3- Mark Moses has a multi-year lease on the building and pay rent. His business, a LLC, belongs to him only, and he owns the entire operation doing business as India Motorcycle Charlotte.

    4- From a very reliable source, and although I am not in a position to verify the numbers, the top 5 Indian Dealers in Retail sales for 2010 are as follows, in alphabetical order. Indian Motorcycle Charlotte, Indian Motorcycle Chicago, Indian Motorcycle Detroit, Indian Motorcycle Omaha and Indian Motorcycle Switzerland

    Now I think that the discussion should revert to the future of Indian Motorcycle under Polaris Industries ownership.   

  88. 88 Art Welch May 12th, 2011 at 9:01 am

    This is quite amusing to me since you’re making up Stories Here LR, but whatever.. I’ll amuse you with a response.

    May 12th, 2011 at 4:55 am
    Lots of noise from Art’s apologists, but no direct answers from Mr Welch himself.
    Shocking, I tell you. Shocking. (Rolling eyes.)

    **No one is apologizing for me, I don’t see where that is written on here**

    I do have to admit, though, Art, it takes some seriously large stones to march yourself into Branson for the Iron Indian Riders rally, when you have dissed them like dogs for the past couple of years.
    You remember the IIRA, don’t you, Art?

    **Yes Very well, in fact we have 2 if the IIRA members in our riders group who seem to be fine with being in both groups since they feel welcome at our dealership, and have decided to support the Home Town Local Dealership.

    Large Stones? March myself into Branson???? I thought this Rally was for ALL Indian Riders.. are you saying that IIRA excludes people who are not IIRA members?? I thought this was a rally for any INDIAN owner??? Should I be worried that some sector of IIRA members are going to beat me up? Shoot me?….let me know if there’s that kind of peaceful sector of the group and where they might be so I can sit down with all of them and buy them all a beer and invite them to our charity event in August.**

    The largest modern Indian motorcycle riders group in the world?

    **Great! Good for THAT! =o) …We don’t want to be the biggest or the best, we want to be the most Charitable here locally.. And we have a great group of Indian owners who do JUST THAT, Can you be part of that? Without trying to exclude yourself? These are Indian Owners. Get it? If IIRA did nothing to reach out to them out here, thats on IIRA out here.. not national. And even so, we’ve still invited them to come to the meetings, especially when Polaris Came to our Dealership to talk with all the riders. Full house by the way. The invite was there, exclusion was on their own. Polaris supports the dealerships, and have sure given us a ton of support and visits. Communication with them has been better than it’s ever been **

    The ones whose club patch you said you were going to wipe your (expletive) with?
    Do you think any of those boys remember that?

    **first time i heard about that one, NOW this is amusing to me even more since you seem to be reaching for the stars**

    The charity work is nice, too, Art, really…

    **Why thank you. Why not show how big a type writer tough guy you can (#1 by actually stating your name) be and come and support our Charity event here in MN.. it would speak volumes about yourself and show everyone that you can be “the bigger person”**

    too bad YOU didn’t elect to support the IIRA’s charity work, or the IRG’s.
    You remember the IRG, don’t you, Art?

    **We support all Charity work, but i’m sure since you’ve never been to our meetings, you really wouldn’t know that**

    That’s the factory-sanctioned riders group that Indian Motorcycle asked you to form a chapter of?
    And you refused, is that not correct?

    **When there is no actual person at the helm of that and absolutely no real organization, no leadership, no news letters, no notice of any kind of charity work, we took it upon ourselves to start our own group. Wasn’t that why IIRA was started? Because the previous factory “Gilroy” didn’t support the riders? Thats the story I was given”

    Art, you have a bad habit of burning bridges, have you noticed that?
    Sometimes while you are still STANDING on them.

    **None, none that matter at the present moment. And the ones that don’t matter, are the ones who defamed or slandered me, the dealership, our business. Why do you think those people that did that matter the least to me? Can YOU guess why? (really, please answer this question) People can like or dislike me *shrug* would you worry about who likes you and who doesn’t like you your whole life? REALLY?**

    How many people at Indian have you alienated, big time?

    **None. All Riders, all people, all Indian Owners, club members from all worlds are welcome to the shop and our Charity event. Hey why don’t YOU come to our charity event and support something nice out here.. oh wait.. what was your real name again?**

    No wonder you’re so thrilled about Polaris…you think you’ll be able to just waltz away from all that bad blood you generated at King’s Mountain.

    **what exactly are you talking about here, …..bad blood at kings mountain?????? huh?**

    Maybe…. maybe not…. karma catches up with all of us, sooner or later, Art.

    ** you know, I just had an interesting conversation about Karma the other day… No one ever thinks they are the bad guy, not even when they know they’re doing something bad. They feel that no matter what they do, EVEN when THEY know it’s bad, its a justafiable action. Bottom line.. we all have to live ourselves because of what we do, and what we do is who we are.

    I’m sure YOU feel deep down inside, that you’re a good guy. You probably are. But would you actually ever think that you could convince me that i’m a bad person? Do you think I would ever try to convince YOU that YOU were a bad person? REALLY?.. I’d just shrug it off.. No big deal.**

    Have you also noted that none of the other Indian dealers finds it necessary to be on the internet, calling people ‘Ding Dongs’?
    “DING DONGS”?!?!
    Really, Art.

    **are you saying that the other Ding Dong I called out was a dealer? Boy I just thought I was calling a spade a spade, cuz I sure didn’t ever meet any dealers that used that foul foul FOUL language like I did when I said DING DONG, MY GOODNESS!**

    A respectful aside to Cyril Huze:
    Cyril, I know you have multiple inside contacts at Indian. You could, I am sure, shed some light on this, since Indian and the other dealers are obviously staying out of it, intentionally, most likely.
    1. Does corporate own the dealership in Charlotte?
    2. Who are the top performing Indian dealerships?
    I think everyone will respect the answers, if they come from you.

    (Oh, and KC Cheef…sorry, but no cigar. Not Last Resort. I DID get a big hoot out of that though… for a variety of reasons. Lost Rabbit is a reference to the Treating of Dancing Rabbit, and what Native Americans LOST as a result of it. Look it up. It’s a pretty profound little bit of history. Yeah, I’m Native. A real one. Not adopted.)

    **Yes I was adopted. I never claimed to be Native American. But my My mother is full Sioux. FULL.
    And I’d like to give a nice shout out to the Mdewakanton Sioux Coumminity Business Council At Mystic Lake Casino, for Donating $3000 to go to Participating Riders at our event for bringing School Supplies! Thank you Mystic Lake! This Donation is to go out to the riders that come to our ride to hlps us raise School Supplies for Children in need.

    Lost Rabbit! whoever you are.. You have my very special and very personal Invite to come and join us on our ride. It would be a good chance to meet up with ya, discuss a few things, and clear the air! Care to donate to our cuase if you live out of state? Let me know please. oh and Indian Fan.. Hope to see ya out here! MAke sure you come say hi if you see me out and about at the event**

  89. 89 POLARIS REP May 12th, 2011 at 10:42 am

    We strongly support our local dealership here in MN, and we strongly encourage all Indian riders to support their local dealer in any state, regardless of clubs, patches, rider groups. If you are an Indian Motorcycle owner, and you have a love of the brand, show your support to your local dealer. This will help us make the brand prosper and stronger than it’s ever been. We will see you in Branson.

  90. 90 kc cheef May 12th, 2011 at 10:44 am

    Omaha is in the top 5 Indian Dealers?
    If my memory serves me right they must have made a BIG TIME come back from 2009 to become one of the top 5 dealers in 2010.
    GOOD on THEM!!

  91. 91 kc cheef May 12th, 2011 at 11:53 am

    Polaris Rep.
    You will see the SELECT few in Branson.
    LOT of Indian Riders and supporters no longer welcome there.
    You will be visiting with quite a number of Indian Supporters, but you will also be missing out on quite a few others who are every bit as passionate about their rides.
    Is what it is.

  92. 92 Daniel Ray from Oregon May 12th, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    I agree with the Polaris Rep. We should support the local dealer. Which, we do not have anywhere in the state of Oregon. This Lost rabbit seems to have a personal vendetta against the dealer in MN. Whats the use in trying to bash him and his charity efforts in his continuing of his business? You are only hurting the brand by doing so. If you live in a state where there is an Indian Dealer, and you own an Indian, good for you! Thank him/her for taking the risk to open up at a low point in the U.S. economy. Because he/she did something you sure didn’t do. And on top of that to keep it going??? Personally, If I were the leader in a Club such as the IIRA, I sure wouldn’t want this fellow speaking on our behalf. I’d down right tell him to shut up and sit down. And this sure does not make me want to have any part in joining the IIRA. I’ll keep my Indian, and join somewhere else. Good luck to all the dealers that stuck their neck out! Be proud of your local dealer.

    P.S. Hey Polaris when do you plan on opening up a dealer in Oregon! We’d love to get an Indian Dealership out here.

  93. 93 IndianFan May 12th, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    Daniel, welcome to the blog. Now sit back and read all of Art’s outlandish claims and bashing of other commenters. Search the site for Art’s comments of Don Proudfoot. I am positive you will find his current goodwill outweighed by his previous bad deeds. Just my opinion.

    I congratulate him on his success, but felt it was necessary to call him out on his previous claims. He has very little credibility when it come to claiming he his the best or top performing dealer as proved by the blogs host in a previous comment.

  94. 94 Daniel Ray from Oregon May 12th, 2011 at 2:20 pm

    Hi Indian Fan, thank you. Actually I have read those comments left to Donn Proudfoot. This blog provides very interesting reading. And I can say as a previous owner of a Titan Chopper Sidewinder SX, that Art’s comments to the recently deceased Donn Proudfoot, are in fact valid. There were many dealers that were left in financial strain by this individual, and many of the dealerships that housed these bikes, sadly closed. Although the comments to Donn calling him out on bad dealings are at times harsh, I feel I would be in the same boat as Art and any of the other dealers that housed the bikes. I would feel just as frustrated, although maybe not as vocal about my dealings with someone like Donn Proudfoot.

    But aside from all that, I got to thinking. Who is the actual top leader to the IIRA? Is there one? What do they stand for? What do they do for their community? Are they a charitable group wholey? Or only individually? Who is the main voice of the IIRA, and if there is one, why has he/she not stepped in and tried to make his fellow angry IIRA members make peace with all riders or any dealers? Shouldn’t the love of the brand unify? After all the riders group in MN claims to be a Charitable group made up of mainly of Military personeI. Why would they not want to unify with former Military owners of Indian Motorcycles? Why would IIRA not want to be associated with a group like that even if they aren’t the same riders group? If there is an actual one leader to this group, I would like to have a conversation with this person if there is one, or if there is a local Chapter here in Oregon, I would like to speak to him/her if they have a leader here in town or in the state. Is there anyone who can help me out here?

  95. 95 kc cheef May 12th, 2011 at 3:38 pm

    @Daniel Ray.
    The leader of the IIRA who you are asking to speak with is easily found.
    He is the Administrator on the Indian Motorcycle Community Public Forum.
    There is a lot of history to the IIRA that you WON’T hear about.
    If you DO hear about it be aware you will be hearing one sides version only.
    The history of the IIRA prevents a lot of Indian Riders from being involved in it.

    I’m hoping Polaris/Indian will decide to form their own riders group to eliminate a lot of the insider I know things you don’t know because of my connections BS.

    I look at some of the Victory Motorcycles boards and see a lot of good things going on.

    There is a lot of allure to an established group, but sometimes it’s best to gather facts from all sources before forming an alliance.

    Smoke and Mirrors
    Indians History since 1901.

  96. 96 IndianFan May 12th, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    Daniel, post your phone number and hopefully someone will call you. Please post your findings.

  97. 97 Daniel Ray from Oregon May 12th, 2011 at 5:39 pm

    I think I’ll wait to get an answer on here. I’d prefer to hear it right from the source. Every club has a top member, and this person should stifle members who make their clubs look unprofessional. Maybe Mr. Lost Rabbit can answer this since he seems to be very vocal as Mr. Welch seems to be ridiculed for.

  98. 98 Who_Am_I May 12th, 2011 at 6:39 pm

    Looking forward to seeing where the ownership of the brand goes under the ownership of Polaris – the possibilities are interesting to think about. I will say this…I’m happy to see the brand sustained by a strong American motorcycle manufacturer.

    Some of my best friends and riding partners are riding Victory as long as I have been on Indian – approaching 10 years now. We ask only to share the road. As such we are already planning rides cross-brand. Welcome to the 2011 riding season – hope to see you on the road-it has promise to be an exciting one in the Polaris-Indian-Victory era.

  99. 99 INDIANROB May 12th, 2011 at 7:33 pm


  100. 100 kc cheef May 12th, 2011 at 7:55 pm

    I keep seeing Harley CVOs being compared to KM Indians.
    I am missing and have always missed that comparison.
    CVO has about everything you could wish for on a motorcycle.
    KM Chief is essentially a stripped down motorcycle.
    Hell–you can’t even put a thumb screw on them unless it’s changed since the one I rode.
    Cost of the Chief and CVO is about the same money.
    No way to compare.

    When you started your dealership were you told by Indian you had X number of bikes already sold in your area that had the infamous deposit down on them?
    If you were told that did you actually make any of those sales?
    I spoke to one dealer in the beginning who just couldn’t figure out why the folks who’d made deposits as he’d been told by Indian weren’t coming in to pick up their motorcycles.
    That dealer was one of the first if not the first to fold.

    Kind of felt sorry for him.
    Nice little shopping mall dealership.
    Folks working it were TOTALLY clueless about what they were selling but they did try.

  101. 101 kc cheef May 12th, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    By the way Lost Rabbit.
    Your resonse to my post tells me you might be LR or you know of him.
    You use the name Last Resort–yet I didn’t mention it in my post.
    Come on Mikey–is that you hiding out AGAIN?

  102. 102 Art Welch May 12th, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    Hang in there Rob.. Bring your units out to our event in August if you need to, to see if you can move some units out here. Give me a call here at the dealership tomorrow and lets talk. 651-765-9988

  103. 103 IndianFan May 12th, 2011 at 9:15 pm

    Maybe there is a dealer reading this site who is willing to buy IndianRob’s motorcycles. That would show that they were really behind the product. Any takers on helping this guy out?

  104. 104 DC May 12th, 2011 at 10:56 pm

    Polaris is not competiing w/ HD. That’s not their game plan. Polaris is simply going after 1-2 % of the hard core american crusier market. It’s pure biz. They’re focus increasing sales little by little year by year. With Vic and Indian combined, Polaris wants 3 % of the American crusier markert. That’s the goal !

    A) Make the current Indian motor – bullet proof. (I understand the bottle cap is pretty damn solid as is….but Polaris engineering will make it even better).
    B) Replace the Indian ‘baker’ tranny w/ the new bullet proof Vic tranny.
    C) Re-wire the Indian to use the Vic wiring. Think – Chev /GM, Ford /Lincoln, Toyota / Lexus.
    D) Add in the sheer volume of parts / assor that Polaris currently purchases and the Chief will be 18-24K.
    E) The Indian will only be sold in at a100 or so Polaris / Vic dealers.
    F) Develop a ‘Scout’ for about 8-10 K.

    Polaris knows exactly what they’re doing. I never bought a ‘new american made bike’ off the showroom floor in my life (I take that back – the vtx 1800 I purchased was made by Americans in Ohio – and was bullet proof) – however, if the 2012 Indian Chief keeps the longer wheel base, I will purchase one.

  105. 105 DC May 12th, 2011 at 11:00 pm

    Correction – lol. I’ll puchase a 2013 Indian Chief when they become avail next year.

  106. 106 INDIANROB May 13th, 2011 at 7:26 am


  107. 107 kc cheef May 13th, 2011 at 7:45 am

    Hello Indianrob.
    I got a life thank you.
    And I did ride the first 09 to get any miles on it out in real life.
    I put almost 10,000 miles on one before the factory bought it back.
    Hell–the one I rode didn’t even make 500 miles before it had to go back to the factory for new engine cases.
    Want to hear that story?
    Or maybe the dead battery story?
    Or maybe the foaming oil bag story?
    Or Maybe the saddle bags coming apart on I-70 story?
    Or maybe the seat being such a POS Indian took it back under warranty but couldn’t figure out how to replace it for 4 months story?
    Or maybe the missed fork lug weld story?
    Possibly you’d like to hear the bad gas tank sealant story?
    Or we could talk about how much it cost to get a KM Indian to 10,000 miles if you get the required maint. done in a dealership story.
    That KM Indian motor oil is some kind of magic.
    $15 a quart synthetic and they require 2,500 mile oil changes.
    They kind of help you out on the cost though and only charge you $5 bucks for the filter.

    Sorry Indianrob.
    You Indian dealers were forced into trying to sell a $18 to $22k motorycle for $35 to $40k.
    NO WAY to stay in business and Stellican figured that out and bailed.

    I did a little looking around.
    I’m still wondering about Omaha being a top 5 dealer for KM.
    If what I’m told is true they still have 10 2009s setting on the floor.
    I’ll get in there in a week or so and see if they are the same ones they’ve had for the past 2 years.
    Last time I checked Omaha would sell you the short fendered model and throw in the skirts for free.
    All at a DEEP DISCOUNT.

  108. 108 kc cheef May 13th, 2011 at 8:46 am

    Rob I forgot.
    That little surge issue KM Indians have?
    I can tell you that story also.
    I was the first to report that little issue.
    KM never would address that problem on the 09 I rode.
    Chris Bernauer tried to convince me it was the EFI trying to learn my riding style.
    Chris also tried to convince me a foamed up oil bag, engine light on, hot engine, and clattering were all normal and to just go ahead and ride it.
    Almost 10,000 miles later it was still trying to learn–and the cases and oil pump had been replaced.
    NOW it’s accepted that those bikes have issues with stumbling and fumbling along.
    Indian will sell you the Stage 1 or stage 2 upgrade to cure the problem (hopefully).
    I’m kind of setting back chuckling at the knuckle heads who seem willing to pay for fixing an issue the bike came from the factory with.
    There are some rumors out there that the flash upgrade to address the problem might not be EPA compliant though.
    That old trick Indian Gilroy used doesn’t seem to cut it any more.
    Gilroy would sell you upgrades “for off road use only”
    Early on one of KMs “secret fixes” was to drill out the baffles, and blow all the packing out of the exhaust.
    Indian factory in KM would NOT condone the practice but they didn’t condemn it either.;
    An Indian rep (I won’t mention his name)and I discussed that issue on the phone.
    I was told Indian KM didn’t approve it — but I was also given the name of the nearest dealership to me that could do the work.
    Good luck to you IndianRob.
    I’m hopng Polaris will come in and get Indian straightened out.
    You dealers, and the folks KM promised jobs and futures to got a royal reaming.
    One person at Kings Mountain I was REALLY impressed by, and I’d like to find out if he moved over to Polaris?
    Marc Pommeranz?
    If Polaris hasn’t hired him on–they should be thinking about it.

  109. 109 kc cheef May 13th, 2011 at 8:51 am

    If IndianRob has 2009s he needs to be rid of he should contact Mark Moses in Charlotte.
    According to Marks latest newsletter he’s only got one 2009 left.
    Mark is the KING of the 2009s–he’s been selling the last of the Rennaisance models for quite a while now.
    Maybe Mark can help him out?

  110. 110 INDIANROB May 13th, 2011 at 9:08 am


  111. 111 kc cheef May 13th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    No–they haven’t fixed the problems on the 09s, and the ’10s still have the problems.
    Don’t know about the 2011s–those are pretty damn hard to find except for the Chaolette dealership–he has 17 or so.
    Hoping you can get those 3 2009s sold.
    $700 Leather Jacket?
    That’s ICONIC as hell right there.
    Still no way anyone who looks would be able to compare the CVO price to the KM Chief price and find the value there.

  112. 112 Indian May 13th, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    More babbling from Kc Cheef. The more he types the less people listen.

    Nothing but bad blood with this reject.

  113. 113 INDIANROB May 13th, 2011 at 8:13 pm


  114. 114 SJB May 13th, 2011 at 9:25 pm

    I heard that the dealer in Wichita has many bikes in all years.

  115. 115 INDIANROB May 13th, 2011 at 9:41 pm


  116. 116 kc cheef May 14th, 2011 at 7:47 am

    Are you saying you sold 50 KM Indians?
    If so I’m thinking YOUR Dealership should be doing pretty well in comparison to some I know of.
    As for me knowing EVERYTHING?
    About all I know for sure is everything I’ve written on that 09 KM chief is true.
    And as long as the list on it is–there’s more.
    One other fix to a problem the KM bikes has is excessive oil blow by into air cleaner.
    Discovered it on the one I rode, and now it seems to be a pretty common and accepted problem.
    Solution is–or was to route the tube out of the air breather and let it go onto the ground.
    We didn’t do that to the one I was riding–tried something else, and it worked completely and totally to stop the problem.
    IndianRob–I will agree with you on the Wichita Dealer–Good folks in there-
    -anyone passing by there that’s interested in Gilroy history should take a look at that Spirit they have in there–it’s kind of a rare one if they still have it.
    And Rob–as for me knowing everything?
    Nope–hell I don’t even know much little own EVERYTHING!!
    But I do know the problems the bike I rode had, and I do know the problems it had seem to be pretty common in the KM bikes.
    I’m going to have to say.
    If YOU aren’t aware of those problems, and you haven’t had to deal with those problems.
    All I can think is You are avoiding admitting it, or you got lucky and sold all your motorcycles to collectors–not riders.
    As for your trailer trash comment?
    Some of the best folks I’ve known have lived in mobile homes, and some of the biggest SOBs I’ve ever met live in mansions.
    Hell–I’d already be riding a snowmobile if we had enough snow down here for them.
    And your comment on the dealing with idiots like me kind of leaves me wondering?
    50 happy owners?
    Or dealing with complaints?
    Indian. I’m kind of thinking you must not own a KM or you don’t follow them along to closely. Every problem I had others have had also. (Except that porous engine case).

  117. 117 DC May 14th, 2011 at 6:00 pm

    Whewwwwwwwwwww, can’t believe the exhaustive energy some dudes place on here. lol

    The Gilroy people had an excellent opporunity and they blew it. Unbelievable rapage of investor money. 600 employers ??? Are you friggen kidding me ! lol The thought still makes me laugh. What a complete joke. A picture perfect model of how to run a new company into the ground. lol

    The problems with KM Indians are history. I’m sure Polaris will deal with the issues. What did KM Indians produce…..maybe a total of 700 bikes? Not sold but produced.

    Polaris picked up Indian for next to nothing (for them). In about 18 months or less, Polaris will produce a very solid running bike. They’re probably sell only about 300-500 Indians the first year (July ish 2012 – Dec 31st). And I’ll be buying one of ’em off the showroom floor.

    Haven’t bought an HD since the bowling ball days. So, Polaris definitely has my biz.

  118. 118 INDIANROB May 14th, 2011 at 8:16 pm


  119. 119 kc cheef May 14th, 2011 at 9:51 pm

    Hey IndianRob.
    No complaining or bitch n’ from me.
    Indian bought that 09 back.
    Gave full purchase price to get it back with almost 10k on it.
    That might tell you something in itself.
    Few others out there trying to get their money back also. Good luck to them.
    Kind of keep an eye on that chrome though.
    Rumored to be a mile deep but as with all things chrome there have been some issues reported with it also.

  120. 120 DC May 15th, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    Hey IndianRob –

    I’d like to see Polaris keep the paint, chrome, etc., etc. however I think it’s highly doubtful (maybe a limited edition perhaps). It’s just not cost effective for volume. Again, it is a biz. Just the sheer volume of purchaing power Polaris has will drastically…..and I mean drastically, reduce the price.

    Since this deal has been in the works for months, there’s no doubt the Indians have been throughly gone over by the Polairs engineers for the same time frame (or maybe more) to work out whatever issues they deemed need fixing for them to present whatever they’re going to present for sale in July.

    I may purchase then, or hold out to the re-engineered bike next July (2012).

    So ironically I guess I have to give kudos to the Gilroy idiots for at least they brought the name back, and set it in motion for Polaris to have it today. Bizarre journey, but it is what it is. lol.

    I wish Polaris well, cuz I’ll be a customer.

    btw. I can only imagine what Indian would be like today, if Polaris was not outbid in the Gilroy auction. (I’m presumming that’s what happened.)

  121. 121 IndianFan May 15th, 2011 at 7:50 pm

    What’s up with everyone putting “lol” after every sentence? I have yet find myself “laughing out loud” after what they’ve written. Seems kind of like it’s the same person writing under different names.

  122. 122 kc cheef May 15th, 2011 at 8:06 pm

    @ IndianFan.

  123. 123 INDIANROB May 15th, 2011 at 8:43 pm


  124. 124 INDIANROB May 15th, 2011 at 8:46 pm


  125. 125 Chrome Pyrope May 18th, 2011 at 10:54 am

    Maybe this time around will be the moment when Victory- Indian will return back to its core; Scouts for the upstarts and bringing back the Spirit for the us mid-riders who don’t want the look of baggers. One thing for sure… an Indian bike can sure break the ice and attract the ladies at rallies. Breakdowns are common on all bikes, just need to be prepared and now, in this 21 century; we have GPS & Cell Phones… Enjoy reading the comments about the function and problems of KM Indian; maybe now; excessive pricing will go down @ the end of this riding season for the upcoming year and we can buy a Indian Jacket for $99… and become a walking billboard

  126. 126 John Ayres May 22nd, 2011 at 8:18 pm

    If Polaris uses the “Freedom 106” motor in the Indian, that will be a major plus as far as reliability. The “Freedom 106” is a maintenance free motor. Just change the oil and ride the hell out of it. You’re still talking about a large American made V-twin motor with lots of torque & horsepower. Remember, Victory’s cheapest model does zero to sixty in less than 4.5 seconds.

  127. 127 00indian Aug 22nd, 2011 at 7:27 pm

    I’m really not up on the take over, other than being pleased to hear that Indian will survive. I purchased a 2000 chief in Hawaii last year and love it. Being on the Island however played hell on the chrome and I had some electric problems so being in NC now I brought it to Charolette. I’m very pleased with the work and care they have taken with my bike. Mike has gone out of his way to make sure the final product is nothing but excelant.
    With that I’ll put a plug in for Rocky Bags, the origainal maker of the Gilroy era Indian bags, I contacted him to see about making my leather (seats, backrest and bags) in ditressed tan. Again nothing but absolutly beautiful. He as well made sure I would be pleased. He is very very good at what he does, Kudos Rocky.
    If I could I want to thank both Rocky and the Charolette Dealership esspecialy Mark And Mike.
    Great job done by all.

  128. 128 Indianstromy Dec 6th, 2011 at 4:08 am

    Let’s just see what happens

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