Harley-Davidson Considering Closing Its York Assembly Plant

harleydavidsonyorkfacilityHarley-Davidson Inc. is considering closing its main motorcycle assembly facility in Pennsylvania and moving production elsewhere as it aims to lower costs and cope with a sales downturn, a company spokesman said Wednesday. Spokesman Bob Klein said the Milwaukee-based company is exploring ways to reduce costs at its York location. That could include a move, though he declined to say where. The York facility employs about 2,400 workers and consists of two motorcycle factories that assemble its Touring and Softail motorcycles.

Klein said the York facility is not competitive as it stands. “It relates to excess capacity, it relates to competitive and cost pressures both in the current economy and longer term,” Klein said. Pennsylvania Sens. Arlen Specter and Bob Casey sent a letter on Tuesday to Harley Chief Executive Keith Wandell, saying the facility is important to the local economy and calling on the company to protect the factory’s jobs”.

 The company has also seen a wave of turnover among its top leadership in recent months. On May 1, Wandell took over as CEO from Jim Ziemer. The company’s chief financial officer, Tom Bergmann, stepped down at the same time. Harley also got a new interim head of Harley-Davidson Financial Services and a new senior director of financial reporting.


40 Responses to “Harley-Davidson Considering Closing Its York Assembly Plant”

  1. 1 Wyked Illuzionz May 14th, 2009 at 8:26 am

    Perhaps if they would have been more conservative in the past there would be more to rely on the in the future.


  2. 2 choppertom May 14th, 2009 at 9:42 am

    all companies who have union ties will eventually feel the burn.
    people (workers) will always get more & more until the company moves to a cheaper location.

    america needs to wake up! our workers do a great job until they get lazy and compliant…..
    they get paid waaaay more than they’re worth.

    how is it that an airline pilot makes $17,000.00 a year and a union employee could gross $75k?

  3. 3 Sam May 14th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said:
    “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

    The workers must decide if they rather take less pay or be unemployed.

  4. 4 Jeff Nicklus May 14th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    We worry about a damn motorcycle plant closing or cutting back ????? Look at the bigger picture!

    There is something wrong with a society in which a college graduate can start their career at a salary of $20K while a UAW Forklift driver, who possesses the same mental acuity as a dry piece of toast, earns $150K+ a year in salary and benefits. It is little wonder we have lost our manufacturing capabilities to other countries. Damn shame!

    Let us not forget a society that prizes their athletes to the obscene extent that they earn hundreds of millions of dollars annually because they can bounce a basketball, carry a football or hit a baseball (and in most cases, while admittedly not in all cases, most athletes can spell their own names) Yet, a Cancer Research Doctor may earn enough money to pay his electric bill and housing ….. and we wonder why this country is falling apart.

    Let HD file a Chaper 11 and do away with the blood sucking unions or die on the vine. Just my observations!

    Over & Out,


  5. 5 Sam May 14th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    For some reason the press has latched on to only one scenario regarding the plant,
    there are many different options for the York Plant, one of them is to close the plant.
    That one is on the bottom of the list, but makes great headlines.

  6. 6 FUJI May 14th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    Jeff: Good read. You have wisdom.

  7. 7 FUJI May 14th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Costs due to labor contracts have not helped this situation.

    I would not be surprised to see some models vanish untill a later date .

    Harley keeps playing their old game by manipulating accounting. As long as they keep shipping more bikes to dealers than are needed, they can keep up earnings and revenue target

  8. 8 Grayhawk May 14th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Most points are valid from their given perspective except those that grind axes for a living.

    Present day unions have a bunch of down sides under the premise of good for the worker, I am not a union fan in its present day form or political agendas.

    In regards to Sam’s comment, it is an option, one of many downsizing options on the table along with Buell considering going from three to one facility itself in the near future and both moves make sense from/to most business minded people. Present day sales numbers and projected future quantity production numbers in the near and far future forecasts probably dictate same economy aside. Most know they just outsourced distribution and delivery as well to further reduce overheads and burdens.

    I am sure you will see more consolidations forthcoming as the economy lingers and inflation starts to set in.

    There are ongoing changes at the top and are expected in any cooporation when you change the top as they bring in their own and evaluate existing overtime, as I have said before I hope change is for the good of the product and industry as it will affect all involved.

    Do not think they, HD will go the route of Chapter 11 unless the whole economy dies on the vine and/or they HD does not resolve their own HDFS Sub-Prime issues. Thus the changes IMHO on the finance side of the business as well.


  9. 9 James (Kiwi) May 14th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    Jeff your observations of what people now idolise covers many countries.Wether it be an english foootballer your baseball players or God Bless her Paris Hilton, these peoples wealth are driven by the media.The mainstream media lives in the gutter, only looking for bigger returns not real news.
    Surgeons,engineers and other professionals who invent and help this society move forward and improve it are now no longer recognised or appreciated. We would rather idolise someone who can do home porn or kick a ball.

    The advent of the media giants owning nearly all outlets is shagging the west.We only have one newspapaer left in NZ that is an independant and actually owned by someone that lives here.All the rest are media giants looking for the quick buck..
    The unions strength is a by product of that.They just take as much advantage as they can.Greed and avarice is amongst us and the Muslim political religon knows it.They see the west as being morally weak at this time and exposed to attack.

    Sorry to be so morbid,but unless the west gets it’s shit together we are on a downward spiral.

    Now wheres mar happy pills …lol

    Have a good weekend all

    James (Kiwi)

  10. 10 Joe May 14th, 2009 at 5:56 pm

    How long before we see Harleys with “Made In China” labels on them?

  11. 11 AL May 14th, 2009 at 8:35 pm

    Americans against americans, thats where the issue is. It burns my ass when all these people people blame the union when in fact if it wasn’t for the unions half of you scabs would not be earning the wage you are. In vehicle manufacturing labor equates to 10 percent of the vehicle cost why don’t you attack the other 90 percent? Many of you are living in the past unions are not ran like this in todays world. All new uaw workers hired from this point on will only make $14.65 per hour and you can thank all you foreign car and bike owners for that

  12. 12 Sam May 14th, 2009 at 9:46 pm

    It’s not Un-American to be anti-Union. The unions have themselves to blame for their problems. The Unions have morphed into something so big & corrupt they no longer have the workers best interests at heart. They have their own agenda separate from workers & management. It’s all about the dues they collect nowadays. Don’t be fooled by their rhetoric. What burns me up is seeing 5 guys supervising while 1 person is digging at a construction site. Imagine having to run a factory with these clowns & trying to compete with a non union shop. I’ve worked in construction so please don’t lecture me. The unions are so corrupt with mob influence, and it will be even worse after the Obamessiah told officials in the Teamsters union that he favored ending the Independent Review Board (IRB) that was created in 1989 by the federal government to rid the union of organized crime. Tommy Vietor, a spokesman for Obama, confirmed the story, saying that the candidate believed that the IRB had “run its course” because “organized crime influence in the union has drastically declined.” The Teamsters subsequently endorsed Obama for president, in late February.
    Embezzlement, False Reports, Violence, And More
    Most people don’t know just how many crimes are committed every year through which union officials hurt their own members. The number of reputed and verified crimes is staggering. Nothing illustrates this more clearly than the hundreds of indictments of union officials for violations of the Labor Management and Reporting Disclosure Act. According to the Office of Labor-Management Standards (OLMS), those crimes include “embezzlement, filing false reports, keeping false records, destruction of records, extortionate picketing and deprivation of rights by violence.” The OLMS notes:

    In fiscal year 2005, OLMS completed 325 criminal cases. Indictments increased to 114, a 16 percent increase from FY 2001. The number of convictions dropped to 97. In addition, in FY 2005 court-ordered restitution amounted to $23,244,979.

    That’s $23 million in restitution ordered for victimizing union members and others.

    The Department of Labor’s Office of Inspector General oversees, among other things, cases of labor racketeering — and it stays busy. Union officials have continued to earn their reputation for greed, corruption, and mismanagement of union dues.

    In 2005, criminal charges and fines resulting from racketeering investigations hit five-year highs. During that time, more than 1,100 indictments have been issued, and more than $400 million in fines and restitution has been awarded. Many of these cases involve union officials failing to protect their members from unethical pension scams, but the OIG also reports that it saw a three-fold increase in the number of convictions in internal union racketeering cases between 1998 and 2004.

    According to a 2004 Zogby International poll, 71% of union members said the government ought to do more to protect union members from corrupt union officials, and that unions should be required to give detailed reporting of union finances to discourage abuse.

    According to the FBI, four of the last eight Teamsters presidents have been criminally indicted.

    Nearly 50% of the U.S. Department of Labor Inspector General’s labor racketeering investigations involve pensions and employee welfare benefit plans.

    According to the U.S. Department of Labor Office of Inspector General, “Schemes involving bribery, extortion, deprivation of union rights by violence, and embezzlement used by early racketeers are still employed to abuse the power of unions.”

  13. 13 Nicker May 14th, 2009 at 9:47 pm


    “… As long as they keep shipping more bikes to dealers than are needed, they can keep up earnings and revenue target…”


    That doesn’t square with the classic “Supply-Demand” equation………….???
    Guess i imssed your point.


  14. 14 Vlad May 15th, 2009 at 12:27 am

    It’s not Americans vs Americans. The Unions have morphed into something else now, and does not necessarilly have the well being of the workers at heart. They have their own agenda now separate from workers & management.

    Next time you drive by a construction site, try to notice how many people are working & how many people are supervising? It’s not uncommon to see 5 people supervising while 1 person digs. Now try to imagine this type of attitude in a factory & you will begin to see what we’re up against. The Unions today are run by a bunch of goons with mob influence. Having negotiated with them before I can attest they are very short sighted and can’t see the long term effects of the decision. They may win the battle by getting higher wages today, but lose the war when the companies are forced to go bankrupt because they cannot afford to pay those wages.

    “When most people think of violations of labor law, they think first of “Big Business.” But employees, employers, and labor organizations file thousands of charges each year – called Unfair Labor Practices – alleging violations of labor law by union officials.

    The National Labor Relations Board’s annual report for fiscal year 2005 included the number of Unfair Labor Practices alleged against employers and unions. Once again, union officials faced a disproportionately high number of allegations of wrongdoing, when compared to employers. The worst part: The vast majority of allegations said that members were the ones hurt by the union officials that are supposed to protect them.

    The NLRB reported in 2005 that:
    Unions faced a total of 6,381 allegations

    82% of charges against unions alleged illegal restraint and coercion of employees (by comparison, the leading allegation against employers — at 53% — was for refusal to bargain)

    594 charges were for illegal union discrimination against employees

    The NLRB reported in 2004 that:
    Unions faced a total of 6,917 allegations of wrongdoing

    80% of those charges were filed by individuals

    Unions filed more than 100 charges against other unions

    81% of charges alleged illegal restraint and coercion of employees
    More than 600 charges alleged illegal discrimination against employees, an increase of about 6 percent from 2003.

    UAW’s Multimillion Dollar Resort

    Union dues have subsidized the construction of an extraordinarily expensive resort and golf club retreat. The Black Lake Resort and Golf club is luxurious, to say the least. This lakeside resort has 241 guest rooms, 2 full-sized basketball courts, an Olympic size swimming pool, a full gym and exercise room with a sauna, and a golf course designed by Rees Jones, a pricey and well-known golf course architect.

    While UAW union members are permitted to visit the resort their dues have paid for, they cannot do so at any significant discount—they only receive $18 off the regular price.

    Total Membership: 538,448

    Financial Information
    Total Assets: $ 1,267,559,922
    Total Receipts: $ 303,824,990

    Source: Department of Labor, Office of Labor Management Standards LM filings

    Financial Disbursements
    Search Financial
    Disbursement Records

    search this union search all Representational Activities ( 37.9%) $ 119,744,856
    Political Activities & Lobbying ( 3.0%) $ 9,621,882
    Contributions, Gifts & Grants ( 0.3%) $ 818,393
    General Overhead ( 4.6%) $ 14,500,414
    Union Administration ( 12.6%) $ 39,743,652
    Strike Benefits ( 5.6%) $ 17,645,792
    Total Compensation ( 18.9%) $ 59,692,813
    Per Capita Tax ( 1.6%) $ 4,943,506
    Source: Department of Labor, Office of Labor Management Standards LM filings

    Locals & Other Affiliated Organizations
    Top 10 Locals (by Members) Local Members
    UAW Council (Detroit, MI) 538,448
    UAW Council (Detroit, MI) 196,963
    UAW Council (Detroit, MI) 76,977
    UAW Council (Detroit, MI) 56,607
    UAW Council (Indianapolis, IN) 53,698
    UAW Council (Lebanon, TN) 39,955
    UAW Council (Detroit, MI) 33,756
    UAW Council (Des Plaines, IL) 30,112
    UAW Local 600 (Dearborn, MI) 25,418
    UAW Local 7902 (New York, NY) 18,651
    [show all locals & affiliates]
    Source: Department of Labor, Office of Labor Management Standards LM filings

    Top 10 International UAW Leaders & Staff (by Salary) Name Title Total Compensation
    Ronald Spurlock Servicng Rep $ 167,951
    Moses Green Ass’t Minor $ 167,576
    Jamesell Kee Strk Ins Rep $ 162,499
    Helen Lesley Ass’t Major $ 160,163
    Stanley Reasons Servicng Rep $ 160,044
    Ned Scott Servicng Rep $ 159,520
    Ronald Gettelfinger President $ 158,530
    Timothy Novak Servicng Rep $ 157,726
    Albert Carnes Servicng Rep $ 157,148
    John Sangster Servicng Rep $ 156,993
    [show all officers & salaries]

    Source: Department of Labor, Office of Labor Management Standards LM filings
    UnionFacts.com is committed to 100% accuracy. Please contact us with factual corrections & comments.

    Political Money
    527 Money
    In most cases, unions use 527 organizations to make unlimited “soft money” donations to campaigns or candidates they support. Unlike PACs, 527 organizations do not coordinate with specific candidates, and as a result, are not regulated by the Federal Election Commission.

    Total Affiliated 527 Receipts: $ 2,799,435
    Total Affiliated 527 Disbursements: $ 2,322,753

    Featured 527 Accounts
    National UAW Political Action Committee
    Total Receipts: $ 500,000
    Total Disbursements: $ 464,618

    [show all funds]
    Source: Internal Revenue Service 527 electronic form 8872 filings

    Lobbying Money
    Unions often employ lobbyists to influence legislation in their favor. The amount below represents total lobbying expenditures reported to the Senate. It does not represent the total amount spent lobbying federal, state, and local officials.

    Total Senate Lobbying Expenditures: $ 14,892,880
    (from 1998 to 2005)
    [show all lobbying expenditures]

    Source: Senate Lobbying Disclosure Records

    Unfair Labor Practices

    The National Labor Relations Board investigates instances of union violations of the National Labor Relations Act and other labor laws. Unfair Labor Practices include instances of bad faith bargaining, excessive dues, violence, threats and many other violations. Allegations Filed
    Duty of Fair Representation 2,014
    Other Allegations 435
    Coercive Statements 38
    Bad Faith/Surface Bargaining (Succeeding Contract) 36
    Threatening Statements 30
    Union Security Related (including Beck) 30
    Harassment 24
    Disparagement of Employee 17
    Refusal to Bargain (Succeeding Contract) 16
    Union Security Related 12
    [show all ULP violations]

    Source: National Labor Relations Board’s Case Activity Tracking (CATS) database

    Unionization Elections
    The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) oversees union representation elections, or “R Cases.” To call an election, 30 percent of affected employees are required to sign a petition for an election. Elections can be used to both certify and decertify union representation. Increasingly, unions are avoiding the NLRB election process, instead opting for “Card Check” unionization.

    Decertification Elections
    Union members unhappy with their current union can opt to decertify it as their exclusive bargaining representative. These are known as “RD” cases.

    Decertification Petitions Filed: 127
    [see decertifications]

    Source: National Labor Relations Board’s Case Activity Tracking (CATS) database

    Elections Records
    Despite the commonly held belief that most workers would like to join a union, union representation elections—also known as “RC Cases”—often fail.

    Embezzlement, False Reports, Violence, And More
    Most people don’t know just how many crimes are committed every year through which union officials hurt their own members. The number of reputed and verified crimes is staggering. Nothing illustrates this more clearly than the hundreds of indictments of union officials for violations of the Labor Management and Reporting Disclosure Act. According to the Office of Labor-Management Standards (OLMS), those crimes include “embezzlement, filing false reports, keeping false records, destruction of records, extortionate picketing and deprivation of rights by violence.” The OLMS notes:

    In fiscal year 2005, OLMS completed 325 criminal cases. Indictments increased to 114, a 16 percent increase from FY 2001. The number of convictions dropped to 97. In addition, in FY 2005 court-ordered restitution amounted to $23,244,979.

    That’s $23 million in restitution ordered for victimizing union members and others.

    The Department of Labor’s Office of Inspector General oversees, among other things, cases of labor racketeering — and it stays busy. Union officials have continued to earn their reputation for greed, corruption, and mismanagement of union dues.

    In 2005, criminal charges and fines resulting from racketeering investigations hit five-year highs. During that time, more than 1,100 indictments have been issued, and more than $400 million in fines and restitution has been awarded. Many of these cases involve union officials failing to protect their members from unethical pension scams, but the OIG also reports that it saw a three-fold increase in the number of convictions in internal union racketeering cases between 1998 and 2004.

    According to a 2004 Zogby International poll, 71% of union members said the government ought to do more to protect union members from corrupt union officials, and that unions should be required to give detailed reporting of union finances to discourage abuse.

    According to the FBI, four of the last eight Teamsters presidents have been criminally indicted.

    Nearly 50% of the U.S. Department of Labor Inspector General’s labor racketeering investigations involve pensions and employee welfare benefit plans.

    According to the U.S. Department of Labor Office of Inspector General, “Schemes involving bribery, extortion, deprivation of union rights by violence, and embezzlement used by early racketeers are still employed to abuse the power of unions.”

    Every day, millions of union members have money taken from their paychecks to support some union presidents’ political agenda. In 1996, Rutgers economics professor Leo Troy estimated that union political expenditures totaled about $500 million in each election cycle. More recently, the National Institute for Labor Relations Research estimated that total union political expenditures reached $925 million in the 2004 cycle. Over time, this has added up: According to The Center for Responsive Politics, eight of the top ten all-time political contributors are labor unions.

    Labor leaders have made the use of employee money for political causes a popular practice — but it’s far less popular among the public and the members themselves.

    Use of Member Money for Politics is Unpopular and Misunderstood
    Use of members’ money for political goals was second only to corruption as the reasons Americans disapproved of unions, according to a 2004 Zogby poll.

    That poll also found that 63 percent of all employees, and 61 percent of unionized employees, agreed that union members shouldn’t be forced to contribute.

    A McLaughlin & Associates poll indicated that 67 percent of workers were unaware of their right to withhold mandatory dues for politics (to see how to keep your dues, learn more about resigning your union membership).
    Against Members’ Politics
    CNN exit polls showed that 38 percent of union members voted for President Bush in the 2004 election, but more than 95 percent of union funds went to support Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry.

    A 1999 Zogby poll found a majority of union members—nearly 55 percent—thought people should be given a choice of investing their Social Security taxes in some form of personal retirement accounts. But union officials spent millions of dollars to oppose private accounts in the Social Security system.

    The San Francisco Chronicle reported: “California unions spent $88,000 (public employee unions’ share was $68,000) in opposing Proposition 22, a 2000 ballot initiative that defined marriage as between a man and a woman”; a Los Angeles Times exit poll found that 58 percent of union households had voted yes on the measure. The Chronicle added: “California unions spent $32.7 million (public employee unions’ share was $25.7 million) to oppose the recall of former Gov. Gray Davis, yet exit polls found half of union members voted for the recall and 56 percent voted for a Republican candidate to replace him—43 percent for Schwarzenegger and 13 percent for Tom McClintock.”

    In 1992, the Teamsters reportedly gave a massive amount of political money to the presidential candidate it knew its membership did not support. According to author Duke Zeller, “As for the actual amount of Teamster money poured into the Clinton-Gore campaign, Gene Giacumbo, a former elected member of [former Teamsters president Ron] Carey’s board, believes the total figure to be even higher. ‘Carey himself bragged to me that the union gave $56 million to Clinton,’ he confirmed, ‘and this was after an independent, outside poll the union paid for showed the membership responses preferred Perot, then Bush, with Clinton in third place.'”

  15. 15 tattooeddmike May 15th, 2009 at 7:08 am

    Wow, vald,……. a little looong windedddd……………….. all those stats……… I’m exausted and I didn’t even finish reading all of the facts……. or what you would have us believe as facts? And Jeff, why are you so pissed at the unions? Most of these statements untrue!
    I really don’t care about all of your numbers and such, when myself as a Teamster can make a honest wage, and I do believe I earn my money at work! When people bash the unions they forget or choose to ignore the fact that had it not been for the unions, the wages for the common working man would be much less. Tell me, who then would be able to afford the motorcycle lifestyle? Who can afford $25,000 – $30,000 – and up for a new Harley or custom at $50,000 – $60,000+ ???
    I hope we can all get on the same page as I detest people like you who bash the unions as much as I detest lazy people who hide behind the union.
    If we continue to let the corporate types hide and fill their corporate jets with government monies we will all be in the street with nowhere to live. The suggestion that union workers make excessive amounts of money and college grads making only $20,000 ………… is sick, and untrue!
    It gives me no amount of pleasure to point out to the majority of those who have written that their opinions are sick exaggerations!

  16. 16 Cade May 15th, 2009 at 8:07 am

    Union beliefs and Hussian Obama….what a sorry low life belief.
    Chapter 11 for Harley….just around the bend.

  17. 17 Vlad May 15th, 2009 at 9:39 am

    tattooeddmike your logic is warped. Their wages would be higher if they didn’t have to also pay the union dues. How else do you think the Union executives could afford their lifestyle & make the?

    The decline of General Motors is just one consequence of the idea that labor unions can get their members something for nothing.

    Workers themselves increasingly recognize the reality that there is no free lunch through unionization and are increasingly voting to be non-union.

    But the word has yet to reach many among the intelligentsia, who still think of labor unions as institutions that benefit the working class.

    You can always benefit particular segments of any society at the expense of some other segment but unions do not benefit even the working class as a whole — just those who are current union members — at the expense of other workers, current and future.

    One reason that General Motors has been losing market share for years — going from selling about half the cars in the country to selling about one quarter today — is that its union contracts put them at a disadvantage compared to its Japanese competitors.

    Even though Toyota has factories in the United States, the American employees in those factories vote to keep their jobs by staying non-union.

    Toyota takes business away from unionized Detroit car makers, who are forced to lay off thousands of workers while Toyota is hiring additional workers.

    There may not be any big difference in pay scales but unions can create higher production costs in many other ways. Fringe benefits are just one.

    Work rules are another.

    In some industries, employers pay their workers as much as, or more than, unionized workers receive for the same jobs, just in order to be free of red tape restrictions on how they can organize their business or discipline employees who aren’t doing their jobs right.

    Toyota, for example, takes fewer hours to produce cars with fewer defects than Detroit cars.

    While unions are declining in the private sector, they are expanding among government employees. Government agencies are usually monopolies, so competition is no threat to their jobs.

    Taxpayers get hit with the high cost of these monopolies. There is no such thing as something for nothing.

    Teachers’ unions fight desperately and ruthlessly against vouchers, because they must maintain a monopoly of school children under the compulsory attendance laws. Their members stand to lose jobs if forced to compete with private schools.

    Monopoly is the key to unionized teachers’ job security — at the expense of children’s education as well as the taxpayers’ money.

    Labor unions in the private sector have long been in the forefront of those pushing for higher minimum wage laws. Usually union members already make much more than minimum wages but they need to safeguard their jobs from others who could do the same work for less.

    People on the inside looking out benefit at the expense of people on the outside looking in. Losers include not only less experienced and lower skilled workers, whose output would not cover the cost of the minimum wage, but also future workers who may find fewer job opportunities in the unionized industries.

    Minimum wage laws are like protective tariffs insulating unionized workers from the competition of other workers. It is robbing a less affluent Peter to pay a more affluent Paul — all the while using noble rhetoric that appeals to the uninformed and the unthinking, which includes many people with fancy degrees and even fancier illusions about their own higher sense of compassion.

    Higher wages are not always better for workers when they price them out of business? Who benefits when these people are out of work? As wages go up, a factory may not be able to afford to hire as many workers & will look to automate certain functions. Look what happened when they tried to raise the minimum wage in American Samoa to help the worker? The factories there could no longer afford it, so they shut down & all the employees are now out of work?

    Some people may believe that unions benefit their members at the expense of employers — and that big corporations should be paying a “living wage.”

    That may be possible in the short run. But think about it: If unionized workers producing widgets get higher pay by reducing the rate of profit of widget manufacturers, do you think investors are going to continue to invest as much in the production of widgets when they can earn higher rates of return by investing elsewhere?

    The rate of return on widgets cannot remain permanently below rates of returns in other industries. Widget prices will have to rise — and that means lower sales and lower employment. There is no free lunch, no way to get something for nothing.

    Anyone who is serious about people being free to express themselves with their votes wants a secret ballot.

    The problem for labor unions is that workers in the private sector increasingly vote against being represented by unions. The proportion of workers in the private sector who are represented by unions has fallen below 10 percent.

    Since unions are losing the game under the current rules, their obvious answer is to change the rules. Specifically, they want to do away with secret ballots when the government conducts elections to determine whether the workers in a particular company or industry want to be represented by a union.

    With labor unions being major supporters of the Democratic Party– spending hundreds of millions of dollars in this year’s election campaign– it is hardly surprising that Congressional Democrats have lined up solidly behind legislation to let union organizers simply collect signed cards from a majority of workers, in order to be certified as the officially recognized union for those workers.

    Of course, the union organizers will then know who did and who did not vote for them. And they may have long memories or short fuses, or both. Moreover, the workers themselves know that, so they may find it prudent to sign up for a union, whether they want one or not.

    This legislation passed the House of Representatives last year but did not make it through the Senate. “I will make it the law of the land when I’m President of the United States,” Barack Obama has said to the AFL-CIO.

    Senator Obama has also said many times that he is against “special interests.” But, like most politicians who say that, he means that he is against other politicians’ special interests. His own special interests are never called special interests.

  18. 18 Woody May 15th, 2009 at 9:59 am

    Skipping the union thing for a moment, one consideration might be the fact that the York plant is hardly in a prime location-the motors have to be trucked in from Milw. etc. When AMF took over they had the old York munitions plant sitting there and they needed room. I’m sure H-D has been looking for a reason to relocate for years and things are shaping up to give it a shot. The Milwaukee labor & other costs helped the KC plant happen instead of another Milw. one, and it wouldn’t be hard to see them doing the same thing to York. At least KC is closer to the center of the country for shipping, and they could hit up everyone in sight for incentives, concessions, you name it. They are already squeezing things tighter in Milwaukee, cobining and closing a building. I’m afraid they are facing the fact that they are permanently losing some of their market share-a whole different topic.

  19. 19 J May 15th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    LOL- thank you tattooedmike, for reaffirming most suspicions about Union Labor!

    “Honest wage”? Tell me- exactly- what an “honest wage” is?

    Stuck? I thought so- let me help.

    An “Honest Wage” is a wage determined SOLELY by market forces;


    You are DELUSIONAL if you think your union is operating solely for your benefit. At certain points in history, labor unions serve a purpose, yes- the pendulum between employers and employees does swing both ways;

    At this point in history, the pendulum isn’t swinging your way, my friend.

    If you have skills, go out and market them, and get fair value for them. Don’t hide behind some facist organization, who has managed to drive industrialized business in the USA across borders.

    But don’t tell me you deserve a “fair wage” just because….. Be an American, stand up for YOURSELF, and quit relying upon a morally corrupt organization to take care of you from cradle to grave- this is AMERICA, not Moscow.

    Sorry dude- I haven’t seen any “sick exaggerations” in the numbers supplied from above member- pretty easy to document, actually- and it’s not like Ron Gettelfinger is flying around the country on coach, either; Go ask your buddies at Chrysler what they think of the UAW lately.

    The reality is that there is FAR too much artificial bloating in this country, caused largely by labor unions who acted in a political manner, rather than an economic manner;

    And the economy ALWAYS trumps politics- ALWAYS. That’s how the USA began.

    Why are you so afraid of the truth?

  20. 20 Grayhawk May 15th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Sounds like Rome just before the fire. Grumbling of the masses, fighting amongst each other, each arguing a point of personal interest or need but none or few seeing the big picture, the big fire burning on far ridge.

    The Elite, The Government Leaders, The Union Leaders, Big Business Leaders all sitting in the good seats, drinking fine wine, eating plates of grapes and fruit.

    Thirsty off the blood and sweat of others. Rewarding the Gladiatores at least untill they are killed or mamed for life, throwing scraps to the peasants from time to time, rewarding a few in their select service or lobby of constituits or union members to further their power and money needs. Collecting dues and taxes to support their naurcistic needs and controls.

    Not so different than today.

    Big and Small Businesses are moving and have moved out of Detroit and Milwaukee as well as California is going to be the first state in the US to go into bankruptcy unless we the masses pickup California’s bar tab, and all for all the same reasons.

    Big Business monopalization, direct or indirect taxation, entitlements, higher costs of doing business, free lunches, self serving power hungry interests leading the masses astray under perceived frontings of minimal prosperity until it all reaches point of being unsustaintable.

    We are all arguing against the same problem seen through different colored glasses.

    The fire is getting hotter.


  21. 21 Jeff Nicklus May 15th, 2009 at 10:43 am


    You are the man!

    Over & Out,


  22. 22 bigalyts May 15th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    You know all of you have Settled all the problems of the American Government and what next? How about The European Common Market? WTF? We are talking about “PIGS” not “HOGS” ! Those COCK roaches at Harley Davidson have operated a Fricken Price Goudging” and Price Fixing Operation since 1989. They have NEVER, EVER Discounted a Motorcycle at the Dealer Level. I would imagine that Harley Davidson Factory Corp.has Locked their Dealers into their Pricing and Programs as their, Dealers had HAMMERED the “Public” into Paying TOP DOLLAR! NO DISCOUNT BIKES for all last 20 Years. Think about Guys 20 Years Killing Us! They told us our Bikes will “Hold their Value” and Our Financing Programs are Great and wonderful and If you Finance with us or You won’t have to pay a “PREMIUM” for your Bike!! Don’t You guys remember all that SH-T! What’s Up REMEMBER how they Buried us Financially. Look ay your Finance Agreement 17% for Good Credit and 29% with a Little Weak Credit !Their Parts were Top Dollar and Discounts of 10% for a Hog Memeber were an “HONOR” ! How Lucky to get a 10% Discount on their Over Priced Parts and Peelin’ Chrome. What’s Up you guys are talking How? and What? and What If? . Guess What Harley I thinks its K A R M A ! I am LOVINN IT, BIke SALES, BIKE “SLASHER” Events and remember “PIgs Get Fat and the HOGS get Slautered”!

  23. 23 Jeff Nicklus May 15th, 2009 at 11:47 am


    Dude, so how do you really feel about the subject?

    Note: No one ever forced you or any other HD buyer to buy a HD or finance your new HD through HD Finance. If you did and got screwed who is really to blame? Take some responsibility here …. no one is to blame other that YOU!

    Over & Out,


  24. 24 Grayhawk May 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pm


    Sorry partner no finance agreement I ever entered into looked like that whether it be for a house or car, bike or whatever. Those rates are subprime at best and are usually attributive to other issues with same buyer of such credit or the lack of credit sense.

    No matter the finance provider they work off the individuals base rating and either mark up said rating not at all for providing the service and/or bump it no more then 1 or 2 points if ethical.

    It is rather simple to check ones own credit rating before you go in to buy/finance so you know going in your status and can tell if you are about to be hosed or not or are shitting in your own mess kit and setting yourself up for failure. One can always source other credit providers other then a given dealer but if credit ratings are consistent it may not be best to ink a contract.

    I know plenty of small town dealers that never went over MSRP even in the undersupplied years usually they did not have the new designer store bill to pay added to their payouts but then there mere store did not afford you the luxury to browse in the comfort you are entitled to.

    There will always be money mad driven shameless sales people no matter the product of sale so you can’t lump all as one and there are numerous challenged buyers who blindly enters into such an agreement due to ignorance, a larger appetite than pocket book can support and lives outside their means. No free lunches, pay to play or wait to play, sounds like Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac or GMAC or HDFS and here we are.

    Not too may bikers are going to qualify for a bailout. Does the shoe fit or are you talking in reference to a friend either way seek some financial resolution help from one with knowledge. Hope it works out.

    In regards to the HOG discount reference one has to laugh when you think about HD brass setting up a Hog group to enhance marketing means which fans the fad and brings in revenue all the while telling your dealers how good an idea it is and by the way the 10% comes off of their bottom line and not supported by the Motor Company. Good deal if you can pull it off, not.

    Personally I would only discount to customers that continue to support me and my business venture and as such return the favor and show customer appreciation accordingly but not because one is entitled by another. HD Dealerships are contracts not franchises to the Motor Company and as such are self supported and funded each to itself.


  25. 25 Chopper Kid May 15th, 2009 at 8:35 pm

    Well, all of you seemed just pissed. Which is what I notice of people in general in these times. Most everyone is on edge.
    In my opinion, there are a few things to blame here, greed, ignorance and desperation.
    I for one like unions, not to say that haven’t been their own worst enemy at times, but most of us have. It is easy to pick out the lazy union workers and classify all union workers as lazy which is total bs. The majority of unions workers go to work unoticed and do there job everyday and require no recoginition. They do business with me and don’t complain about how everything cost too much, shop locally and hire work to be done locally.
    And then there is the small business owner who really is much the same. Works hard, has lots of pride in his or her business and realizes that a town lives and survives together by supporting each other.
    All you union bashers, I ask you this, are unions to blame for the seperation of classes. The increasing amount of low paying jobs. No, but anti unionism is.
    Some guy, sorry I don’t remember his name wrote a book named “Borrowing ourselves into prosperity” or something like that.
    As the middle class shrunk, the low paying jobs started to rise, and then there was the genx coming into the workforce as the babyboomers were running most everything. The new trend became 2 tier wages. The jobs worked by the majority of people in this country were beginning to pay less and the upper management and especially the CEO pays increased. However the genx were not willing to accept a decrease in there standard of living, and in a country as great as ours who the hell should, anyways people kept up there standard of living by refinacing their homes, and buying stuff with plastic. Oh shit time to sevice the debt. It is either bankruptcy or quit buying stuff. I guess now there is alot of money owed on houses there were overvalued while the price of houses continues to drop.
    But don’t worry big bussiness, I will do that union persons job for 75% of his wage. Damn I can’t afford anything, I am just living paycheck to paycheck, just paying bills while some investment banker buys a 69 Camaro like I had when I was a kid that I paid $2400 and he gives $80,000 for it on Barret Jackson and he is going to keep it at his second home down in Pheonix, AZ. WTF,
    Really, I am tired of talking about this. It is a huge problem and all of have some blame to share. One thing that really chaps me is that in the midwest, welfare pays more and has better benefits than most of jobs in this area. How bad is it when a person who is willing to work can earn a better living than a welfare person.
    I think the bottom line is that we need to get the middle class back and put an end to these exorbent wages paid to upper execs. I think to do it we need to ban together and that is what unions do. Competions is great but there are way too many people who will work way too cheap due to a lack of intelligence just to have a job.

    Guess there is a sucker born every minute

  26. 26 Chopper Kid May 15th, 2009 at 8:35 pm

    “Please send Hate mail and cash”——Russ

  27. 27 Brett May 15th, 2009 at 9:09 pm

    Yes this is plain greed. When times were good, they opened a plant just for Sportsters. Did they think it would never end? They made a mistake getting rid of their wait list & are now paying for it. They flooded the market & there is no demand anymore.

    Oh, but let’s open a Multi Million dollar Museum in 2008 & then in 2009 start closing factories & put people out of work.

    Time for a group of employees to buy the company back again.

  28. 28 Brett May 15th, 2009 at 9:16 pm

    Umm, people where the Hell does a union forklift driver make $150 K a year???

    How about companies quit becoming so top heavy & hiring more office execs then actual workers who build the product??

    Yeah you need a bunch of office jockeys making $200 K plus a year. You need the CEO & then the people under him to take orders. Then they all need people under them to take the orders. Well then you need a 3rd set of office people to take the orders.

    Yeah. It’s all Union workers who are wrecking America. Yep, the Union is far worse then the clowns at AIG, collecting bail out money to give their office people million dollar BONUSES. That isn’t even their salary, it’s their BONUS.

    Yep, it’s all the Unions fault. No blame to go to anyone else. No CEO’s are making bad decisions that are ruining companies.

    Yep, it must be some union forklift driver that sat in the board room & told Honda it would be a good idea in 2009 to make a production chopper.

    Oh & by the way, Airline Pilots are also union.

  29. 29 Jeff Nicklus May 18th, 2009 at 9:44 am


    Not all airline pilots are members of the Airline Pilots Association …. Corporate Pilots, small commuter airlines, do not belong to the APA and in right to work states people have a choice to belong or not. For many years, after the Continental Airlines Chapter 11, there were no unions associated with the company. The people were all paid well and the company prospered. Today the unions are back in and earnings are down …. granted earnings are down for many reasons other than Union related causes.

    I was a member of the APA for several years ( I was forced to join to get my job with an airline based in Chicago) I hated every minute I was a member and I am proud to say I was a thorn in the side of the Union all the time I belonged! Unions are bullshit, in my opinion. Unions are there for people who have no drive or ambition, in my opinion. Unions function as organized crime units who rule through threats and intimidation, in my opinion. Other than that I love unions.

    Once I separated from my “union” job I went to work as a corporate pilot and earned twice the money and worked half the time …. Oh yes, and promotions were based on performance not seniority. Imagine that what a novel idea!

    Over & Out,


  30. 30 Brett May 19th, 2009 at 9:40 pm

    Well I am not part of a union of any kind. Never have been. I see good & bad with them, but people who blame all problems with companies on Unions are wrong. Every company that has problems have many things to blame not just a union.

    There are those who claim unions don’t do anything for people, I disagree. You get a voice you don’t have normally. If you are not part of a union, 99% of the time, if you are having an issue, the result is leave or live with it.

    My brother works for the post office, so he is part of a union. In Wisconsin, companies don’t have to have a reason to fire you. We get Unemployment easily because of this, but you can do everything you are supposed to do & they can just come up & say, your done. My brother had a woman supervisor who decided she wanted 1 of her friends doing my brother’s job. So instead of trying to get him to take another position, something done all the time at the post office, she tried to fire him. They were coming up on a holiday. He was in time keeping at the time. She told him he had to finish everyone’s time sheets before he could leave for the long weekend. He did that, but had to work OT to do. Then she came in the next work day & tried to fire him for working OT. She said she didn’t tell him to work OT.

    Now because he was part of a union, he was able to go to his steward & have the issues resolved & he is in a new department. If not for the union, he would have been fired.

    I also used to work somewhere that decided in tough times they were freezing wages/ Of course the upper management wasn’t freezing theirs, they were just going to take raises 5% less then they had the previous year. Due to the way things worked at this place, we knew how much was being shipped out every month because we had goals that had to be met. We had records for 3 years, yet wages were froze. Because we had no union, everyone had to take it.

    A union could have helped us with that.

    Obviously there are times unions are helping people who shouldn’t be helped. However I also know many times when someone got to be a brown noser to a boss & was able to keep their job & have things ignored that would get others in hot water.

    I just find it funny though when people talk about this stuff. I just went back to school for Supply Chain Management. This type of thing was talked about many times.

    They had all kinds of facts sheets & they said whenever a company struggles, they start by cutting back on the employees. However, in almost all cases, employees pay is not a companies biggest expense. Most of the time it is about 5 on the list. Typically production materials are. Basically in Harley’s case, that means instead of cutting jobs, they should find a cheaper source for the metals for their tins, or engines or whatever.

    OR maybe they should have foresight to know all the bikes they were selling wasn’t going to last & they shouldn’t have flooded the market or build a Sportster plant or opened a Museum that cost them 10’s of millions if not hundreds.

    Just look at everything Toyota does differently then GM. While Toyota is now feeling the pinch as well, they are not trying to get government money for either the US or Japan to keep their business going. In Japanese companies you also don’t see the giant gap in salaries between the workers & the management like you do in American companies. So while the workers in the Toyota plant might not make $25 an hour, the managers don’t make $100,000 a year or more either. They don’t get giant bonuses at the end of the year.

    Union or not, greed of the ceo usually dictates a companies decisions. It’s all about how the top people can still make millions or billions a year.

    There needs to be a change in the way American’s do business starting from the top.

  31. 31 Jeff Nicklus May 20th, 2009 at 1:53 pm


    O.K., let’s see here how the Union operates on a site ….

    A delivery truck arrives driven by a Teamster with one crate on the back of a flatbed trailer. The teamster will un-strap the crate. Once that is complete the Operators Union will show up with one forklift driver and one spotter (2 men min.). They will, after a lengthy inspection of the crate which may include at least one break, lift the crate and take it to a given location. Once set on the ground the Carpenters Union will show up with two (2) Carpenters and one (1) Apprentice carpenter ….. they survey the situation for 15 minutes, take a break, go back to their supply shed and retrieve the tools necessary to open the crate and return. By now it is time for another break. Once the afternoon break is complete two (2) carpenters watch as the apprentice opens the crate …. however, now a problem exists as parts of the crate are wired together internally ….. now we need the Electricians Union to survey the problem! Once the Electrical Union arrives with two (2) Electricians and one (1) Apprentice they survey the tools necessary to complete the job, return to their tool boxes to secure the tools, however, now it is 15 minutes till quitting time, so they lock their tools up, wonder to the bathroom and head to the time clock to wait for the buzzer.

    Next day no one heads to their assigned jobs until the buzzer rings at 8:00am ….. couldn’t think of being at their job locations to start work at 8:00am as that is against the Union contract. Now the Electricians again gather their tools and head back to unwire the crate …. However, you guessed it …. Coffee break time. After coffee break the crate is unwired and the electricians retire just in time for lunch. After lunch the carpenters return and complete the opening of the crate just in time for afternoon break. After break the operators return to lift the machinery out of the crate and locate it on site. The Laborers Union is now employed to clean up the mess the Carpenters and Electricians left …. but guess what… that will have to wait for another day as it is “almost” quitting time.

    I think this is a good example of how the normal union operates. No, Unions are not the problem! Right.

    I once had a friend of mine who, was is a Union Iron Worker tell me that if his “ass didn’t make him an hour’s wages a day then he wasn’t doing his job”.

    As I said before the Unions are not the sole reason a company fails, but it damn sure is a major reason.

    Just my opinion.

    Over & Out,


  32. 32 liuchuang May 23rd, 2009 at 4:35 am

    China is waiting .No one else can stop the storm.

  33. 33 Sue May 23rd, 2009 at 6:18 pm


    I’m disappointed. I was looking forward to coming down to York in Mid August for another tour of the plant. I was bringing a Harley friend with me. I’m not really a fan but as I was at a Woodworking Tradshow in the town, I heard about the tour… and I was very pleasantly surprised. I menitioned it to many friends up here in Canada and said you have to go and check it out!

    . I guess the first thing to go… even if the plant remains will be all the add-ons … like the gift shop and fantastic tour?
    Well, we might be down even still. Bel Paese Restaruant in York was also memorable. Worth the 8 hour drive!

    Hope you guys can hold it all together. WORK IT OUT! Please?

    Ottawa Canada

  34. 34 lady May 27th, 2009 at 10:10 pm

    About time these lazy H.D. employees wake up to the real world and have to get a job where they actually have to work, not get paid 80,000 a year to play cards and smoke pot and get all kinds of benefits to boot, while people with college degrees are collecting unemployment, where’s the justice?

  35. 35 TomP Jul 19th, 2009 at 6:36 pm

    The Harley/York manufacturing plants were already in a very aggressive cost restructuring effort prior to the the new CEO Wandell being named to replace former CEO Zeimer and prior to Wandell announcing that the Harley/York culture has to change.
    First, what does Wandell know about Harley”s culture and history must less York’s?
    What passion can Wandell have about Harley-Davidson?
    As the article states, there has been a wave of upper management turnover at corporate headquarters in Milwaukee.
    Career Harley-Davidson management professionals are leaving the Company as the Board has decided to bring an outsider into the Company to do the dirty work of cutting heads and closing plants. This is a familiar business model with companies. The problem is that a company like Harley-Davidson loses it’s soul, it’s passion,it’s integrity and it’s history.
    The York ,Pa. facilities consist of the older Touring plant and the newest assembly plant in the Harley-Davidson corporation – the Softail plant.
    The Softail plant was designed and built with the latest in lean manufacturing and engineering principles.
    Newly minted CEO Wandell has announced the possible closing of the entire York operations due to inefficient cost structures, excessive capacities along with issues with union contracts.
    How does Wandell know what the cost structure is at York when the York facility is smack dab in the middle of permanent job cuts(both hourly and salary) and when York is closing down parts of the older Touring plant and consolidating these all at the Softail plant?
    How can Wandell state that the York facility needs to streamline operations when that is exactly what they were doing prior to he becoming CEO?
    Looks to me like York is the fall guy in all this. Which plant has been the catalyst for Harley’s unprecendented 20 year record sales growth? York.
    Wandell, to have any credibility within Harley-both from salary and hourly personnel, needs to lay out the cost comparisons of all Harley facilities at York, Kansas City, Tomahawk,WI.,the Milwaukee engine and transmission plants, their trike facility and their Buell operations.
    It seems to me that once the old Touring plant is shut down (including the Touring assembly line) all production is consolidated at the lean manufacturing Softail plant and all hourly and salary permanent job cuts have been implemented, then the true operating costs at York can be figured out.
    Until then, Wandell should not have threatened closing the York facilities. It is not fair as no other plant has been threatened, no other plant cost numbers have been compared, it does not make for an enlightened management strategy and it is not fair to the York workers both hourly and salary who made Harley-Davidson Motor Company what it is today.
    No other Harley manufacturing facility could pull off what York is doing today and has been doing for the past several years to get their cost structure down and to consolidate two manufacturing plants into one while launching a new model year and keeping the lines running.
    He is magnanimous in stating that he does not lay the blame soley at the feet of the union but also at management’s feet. The blame does need to be shared and now is the time for both sides to face the reality of the global economic recession, sit down at negotiations and rewrite contracts if necessary to keep the York Softail plant running. It is called labor/management negotiation.

  36. 36 ron Aug 5th, 2009 at 11:40 pm

    less and less people have the money for a 20,000 dollar motorcycle….a harley is not a half to have….
    sales are declining fast and hd finance is seeing a huge default in financed bikes….you can blame it
    on anything you like but the bottom line of any business is consistant sales revenue, that drives it all.
    my advice to hd is to get small, fast, don’t try to exist at your current size, this ain’t your normal recession,
    this is redefining north america, nothing less…

  37. 37 Mark Sep 27th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    As a 13 yr union employee of Harley Davidson York I have seen the company go from a great place to work to a hell hole.And now they want to blame it on the union,well last time I checked we had no say in the day to day running of the company.It’s all a sad game to put even more money in the upper managements pocket.Also get the pay scales correct if your going to spout off try more like 25.00 per hour is this really to much for a welder with 20 yrs experiance that’s only 48,000 a year. Alot of us have put years in at this place only to be screwed with by ceos who will never understand the plight of the working man except that we are making to much per hour.To many bikes built to fast we told them this 10yrs ago.Don’t flood the market but here we are.Also try to remember everyone is lazy union and management.We also do not play the wii while we should be working.

  38. 38 nicker Sep 27th, 2009 at 3:21 pm


    “…To many bikes built to fast we told them this 10yrs ago. Don’t flood the market …”

    Ya, seems like basic stuff, doesn’t it…???
    You’d think some MBA credentialed CEO’s could-a figured that out too.

    And if Arlen Specter and Bob Casey are so worried about “the local economy” they should direct their attention to killing Cap & Trade legislation instead-a writing letters to HD.


  39. 39 outsidegangskilled Oct 5th, 2009 at 7:13 pm

    My first harley was a 94 Road King which I took apart my first winter. After riding Triumph’s, 750 Norton Commando, I was always hearing about riding American!
    Almost 1/2 of that Road King’s parts were made overseas! Made in America? Assembled maybe!
    And their aftermarket parts, and clothing? Especially leather products are made over sea since the tanning process is costly and the chemicals have to be dumped somewhere where its legal, on the ground. Union or management does it matter? Both side make way to much money. How is it ok for management to make what they make to just sit on their butts when the person working shouldn’t?
    I now own an 2000 Ultra Classic and only loss $500 in my trade.
    My Ultra is now valued at only $10,000.00 when I paid $21,000.00
    So much for holding its value. I am an Electrician and worked union and non union. We could save a lot of money if we got rid of supervisors. As long as they pay for one I’ll make them earn it!
    I know what I have to do and how long it should take!
    I worked at some jobs where the least paid were made to do the most work and some who were management at one job and now had to work were the laziest!
    I thought the employees owned Harley? Or was that a scam to get people to buy Harley?
    I can remember when you could deal on a harley! I won’t buy another one until I have a say in what I pay, not them! I can’t wait to see some of thos smug dealers start calling me and asking if I want to buy a bike! Especially the one in Buffalo,NY!

  40. 40 Donny Jul 29th, 2010 at 6:47 pm

    Harley davidson great line of bikes is there v-rod line,but baby boomers don’t like it,and buell was a great sport bike and street fighter,but baby boomers don’t like it.(PS) My be harley davidson problem is baby boomer bull.

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