A Case Of Trademark Enforcement By Polaris Industries – Indian Motorcycle Against Crazy Horse Motorcycles

Trademark rights are protected through registration, maintenance, watching, and enforcement. These precautions, and proper use help preserve the ability of marks to indicate the source of a product or service to consumers.

On Monday September 19th, 2011 the Intellectual Property Law Firm of Merchant & Gould in Minneapolis, MN representing Polaris Industries Inc. and its subsidiary Indian Motorcycle International LLC (IMI) contacted Crazy Horse Motorcycles LLC in Kent, Washington for what they consider an Indian Motorcycle Trademark infringement. The subject of this letter is to stop the use by Crazy Horse Motorcycles of an Indian Headdress logo and design used as their corporate logo, tank and fender badges.

John White from Crazy Horse Motorcycles sent me an email/letter stating the following “It seems that Crazy Horse’s logo is upsetting the stakeholders at Polaris. I think we sold a total of ten tank logos and perhaps 15 fender logos. I am not sure who is making the risk management decisions at Polaris but they are going to end up exposing their very weak mark to the point of public domain.  They just (blip) with the wrong guy…”

I am not sure what he means by “Polaris is going to end up exposing their very weak mark to the point of public domain”, but I am pretty sure he is going to explain his arguments in “comments”. I publish below the letter of cease and desist sent to Crazy Horse Motorcycles (minus numerous attachments and exhibits with sketches and drawings) by which Polaris/IMI claims all its Indian Motorcycle trademarks and demonstrate its intent to enforce them.  (I added the Crazy Horse Indian Headdress Logo below the letter). To follow…



Below is the Crazy Horse Indian Headdress Logo. I let you judge.


166 Responses to “A Case Of Trademark Enforcement By Polaris Industries – Indian Motorcycle Against Crazy Horse Motorcycles”

  1. 1 Lyle Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:06 am

    What about the small manufacturers supplying parts for the original Indians? They have been manufacturing that same ornament for decades prior to Indian becoming re-trademarked.

  2. 2 Bago Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:41 am

    Time to go to Wallyworld and stock up on popcorn. This one should drive JW and his sidekick CRAZY!

  3. 3 Brett Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:42 am

    But Crazy Horse took the Indian stuff & tweeked it a little to make it Crazy Horse. They are also selling the Powerplus100 with their fixes & claiming it as their own under the Vplus name.

    We’ll see where this goes.

  4. 4 Kicker4 Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:51 am

    It had to come. Crazy Horse in big trouble. I think they bought a few Gilroy Indian engines, did reverse engineering with TP Motors and sold a few as Crazy Horse original engines. Then, I heard they ran out of money to pay their vendors. I am for trademark enforcement.

  5. 5 brandedmojoman Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:51 am

    Very slippery slope, what if I am an American Indian looking to revenue generated by the “branded” heritage already established hundred’s of years ago

  6. 6 Shifter Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:52 am

    It doesn’t matter much because I think Crazy Horse is an inactive entity.

  7. 7 Bruzz Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:01 am

    John White? The same guy who was claiming he owned the Hoka Hey race, who said he was partner with Jim Durahm of Hoka Hey in a new venture called Hoka Hey Motorcycles (read this one in Cycle Source magazine, I think), who was then threatened by Hoka Hey because he tried to copy the Hoka Hey challenge? Now copying the Indian logo? It’s a lot for one man.

  8. 8 Henry Schmitt Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:08 am

    Bravo Polaris/Indian. You don’t want the prestigious brand you paid for to be diluted by Bozos.

  9. 9 Erin Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:10 am

    I am not sure who is making the risk management decisions at Polaris but they obviously didn’t listen to those of us who’ve dealt with him before if they think a simple C&D is going to make this lunatic go away.

  10. 10 Jack Preston Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:13 am

    I don’t think that Crazy Horse/john White can fight this one. His biz is over.

  11. 11 Bago Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:36 am

    It starts with a C&D letter which also stated they are looking for an amicable solution. Up to JW how he wants to officially respond. Historically, it would be fitting that the guy that makes pile drivers gets pounded into the ground by the company that makes Indians.

  12. 12 Demon Child Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:42 am

    Bago. Very funny.

  13. 13 Chief Big Feather Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:45 am

    Hmm heap big trouble for Crazy Horse, look like Calvary outside teepee time to
    go steal someone else property, now pass peach pipe, chief buzz is going down…..

  14. 14 Brandon Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:45 am

    Ref: Hoka Hey. Seems like JW loves to fight but always lose. Another loss coming.

  15. 15 CafeSportyTC Sep 21st, 2011 at 10:38 am

    VW did this to the small shops that had a VW symbol or the image of a Bug on there store fronts…. to this day I still wouldnt ever buy a new Volkswagen….. But for some reason this makes sense to me. the Indian niche is kinda cluttered and not well represented. I think that polaris might be doing something good for there Indian brand… but ive been wrong before

  16. 16 Paul Sep 21st, 2011 at 10:48 am

    Very impatient that John White explains to us why the Indian trademark is weak and why he thinks he has the legal right to copy the Indian Motorcycle hairddress and logo.

  17. 17 Susan Sep 21st, 2011 at 11:52 am

    Give it time. He will be here spouting his BS along with his lap dog, Ed Corbin, soon enough.

  18. 18 Troy Sep 21st, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Didn’t I see a memo stating that Crazy Horse Motorcycles name was changed to Hoka-Hey Motorcycles because the Crazy Horse Tribe had not authorized to use their name?

  19. 19 John White Sep 21st, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    As you all know, Crazy Horse is not going to go away. You see our engines on American Choppers. Hoka Hey…………………well it was a good business decision to stay clear. I am not a Red Cloud.

    Please be aware that Crazy Horse rode into battle wearing a red hawk tail feather, turquoise jewelry hanging from his ear along with the symbol of the eight sided star which his tribe worshipped. You can see all of these symbols in our logo. Remember also that Crazy Horse never picked a fight but he did finish them.

    Indian Motorcycles does not own every headdress in the world. My great grandmother (Hannah Stone) was from the same Oglala Sloux tribe as Crazy Horse which is why I picked this name, a tribe in conflict with the Red Clouds. Let’s not forget that the Hoka Hey is rooted with the Red Clouds. Long ago Crazy Horse made the decison to fight while the Red Clouds make the decision for peace. Crazy Horse did things that some Red Clouds feel was counter productive and may have been the root cause of the treatment the US Government hands out even to this day.

    This is going to be a great display of a game called the “sport of kings” and we shall see what happens. The giant attacks the small guy. Perhaps the small guy is cocky and arrogant and has many that do not like him. So be it. We all have friends and we all have some that do not like us. You cannot please everyone.

    Be aware of all the other companies that are receiving the same letters. Those that have held that mark up for decades? The Alan Forbes and the Kiwi’ Indian and many others. This mark has many warts and I will be open and share with all of you this corporate way of doing business. It gets ugly but there are strict guidelines we call the law.

    This battle was already fought in 1997. Otherwise I would have been “served” rather than receiving a nice informative letter with no threats but a willingness to work things out. They were told to send the letter to my patent attorney and they ignored this and sent the letter to my home. This is the way they start out- for maximum intimidation. Every lawyer in the world knows that if the party identifies his lawyer then this is where the correspondence goes. The game begins.

    Thank you Cyril for bringing this situation out in the open. Crazy Horse lives!

    John L. White

  20. 20 Eric Maurer Sep 21st, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    big company + deep pockets + lots of lawyers vs. small guy + less money + fewer laywers

    The big company with deep pockets almost always prevails.

    making a statement that “they f’ed with the wrong guy” will only make Polaris’s lawyers want to crush this issue even faster just to prove a point.I

    I predict this legal issue will be over within weeks but I imagine this (yawn) topic will be dragged through the blogosphere for months to come.

  21. 21 Jeff Nicklus Sep 21st, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    Eric Maurer,

    What if the big company with the deep pockets and lots of lawyers is actually the rightful owner of the copyright and patients, shouldn’t they win? Or should Polaris just bend over and spread their cheeks so we can all feel good that the “Little Guy” beat the “Big Company” out of something?

    Over & Out,


  22. 22 Erin Sep 21st, 2011 at 2:50 pm

    Anyone who follows the Crazy Horse/Indian drama knows Polaris is in the right….unless they are John White or Ed Corbett. It will be fun to watch their delusions of grandeur get crushed by reality.

  23. 23 John White Sep 21st, 2011 at 2:59 pm


    Have you been listening to the KM owners lately. Ed Corbett did a good job warning folks about the issues and problems. What happened?

    Go here to find out: http://indianlegacyriders.com/pages/GirUserRegistration/KmIssues/

  24. 24 John White Sep 21st, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    Troy: I own the trademark for Crazy Horse. There is no such thing as a Crazy Horse Tribe. There is no authority to “authorize” the name Crazy Horse other than the US Patent and Trademark Office. I once thought changing the name would be a good thing but too many folks do not understand what he stood for so his name gets exposure even as you read this. Our customers like the name.

    That being said, I am involved in a movement that would create a fund for families related to Crazy Horse. I have pledged to finance such a fund. Crazy Horse’s name should not be on a beer can and this case was fought in court. The problem is that no one has good list. There is still settlement money from the beer case that cannot be distributed because the lawyers are still gathering info.

    This thread is more about whether Indian Motorcycles owns all the headdresses out there. This is an overreaching claim. Are you confused by our logo? Look at the two of them and tell me if you are really confused? Do you know anything about Crazy Horse? Most Marines are very aware of Crazy Horse. His fighting skills are still taught in the finest military schools.


  25. 25 kc cheef Sep 21st, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    @ Susan.
    Please get my name right.
    Ed Corbett
    I’m not hiding out or using false info–how about YOU.
    Be as forthcoming as I am Susan.
    Post your real name and phone number also.

    @ Erin.
    Delusions of granduer?
    None here.
    I just love to ride Indian Motorcycles.
    I did get a little friction going when I rode the 09 Kings Mountain.
    Friction began when the problems I reported were sluffed off as not true.
    NOW–every problem I reported seems to be pretty common to the KM list of complaints.
    Plus a pretty long list of problems that seem common that I didn’t experience on the one I rode.
    Would you be the secretary/public relations person I met on my second visit to the factory?
    Also Erin?
    Why would you think a simple C&D letter from a bunch of suits would frighten anyone off?
    If you are the Indian KM Erin you should know better as you witnessed it yourself, and saw the results the first go round.
    Maybe it doesn’t frighten JW off because as before there is nothing to be frightened of.

    I’d like to see Polaris send that letter to a well known MC who seems to favor a ”head dress” style logo and witness the response to that one also.
    Every time I get a look at the above mentioned logo I wonder how that group has gone by with out problems.
    Well I don’t REALLY wonder–but it is amusing.

  26. 26 kc cheef Sep 21st, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    Oh–forgot Erin.
    Give me a call if you like.
    I’d like to ask you a few questions about some of the problems the 09 I rode had–and see if you were made aware of them.
    Also like to ask you aout the ONE KM employee I met that I really got along with.
    I’m hoping Polaris Industries snapped up his contract.
    Nice Guy and knew motorcycles!!

  27. 27 John White Sep 21st, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    The previous situation:

    Gateway Tower West
    15 West South Temple, Suite 900
    Salt Lake City, Utah 84101
    Salt Lake City (801) 537-1700
    Facsimile (801) 537-1799
    Utah Valley (801) 373-5600
    1v1.A.DSON .A.USTIN
    Craig J. Madson
    Via Facsimile 415-268-7522

    Jennifer Lee Taylor
    425 Market Street
    San Francisco, California 94105-2482
    February 1, 2007

    Re: Allegation of trademark infringement Our File: 3530.7.1

    Dear Ms. Taylor:

    We are in receipt of your letter faxed January 31,2007 in which you indicated
    that we had not acceded to your demands of January 29,2007. We thought our letter of
    January 30,2007 was perfectly clear in that regard. However, in the interest of
    completeness, we will confirm that John White and his company will not use the term
    INDIAN AND an Indian Head Dress design on engines at the V-Twin Expo starting
    Saturday. Hence, John White does not intend to use any mark that is likely to be
    confused with any legitimate trademark rights of IMI.

    That being said, we do not believe that IMI has exclusive rights to a Native
    American motif regarding motor vehicles, such as motorcycles, or their parts, such as
    engines. IMI does not have trademark rights that preclude the use of the image of a
    Native American in traditional attire (e.g., in war paint, wearing beads, wearing an
    identifying feather, or wearing a head dress). If that is your position, certainly IMI is

    We look forward to opening a dialogue that may be constructive in resolving the
    present dispute so that the pending declaratory judgment action need not go forward.
    Continued threats, whether they are threats of litigation for infringement or threats of
    going to the press, are not constructive.

    If you have any questions concerning this matter, please do not hesitate to contact

    Sincerely yours,


    Craig J. Madson
    cc: John White
    S:\ALLCLIENTS\3530 John White\3530.7.1 \2nd Itr Response to Litigation Threat.doc

    To Cyril Huze Bog readers:

    This was more than five years ago. Crazy Horse is has been listed as a supplier on the Indian website for all this time. One does not get to decide when to police a mark. As you can see, Crazy Horse Motorcycles does not feel they are infringing and this subject ended five years ago. Crazy Horse may be a small company but it’s pockets are not empty. We will fight for our rights no matter what the cost.


  28. 28 Bondy3 Sep 21st, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    The idea that Polaris would try to stop crazyhorse from getting out on the market before they make their first bike makes since, hasbro has been doing it for years to small toy or board game manufacturors

  29. 29 Tribal Sep 21st, 2011 at 5:01 pm

    Bondy3. Except that Crazy Horse is a 1 man shop and that John White doesn’t know how to build a bike. His job is in the pile drivers business, wearing a suit. No chance you will ever see one of HIS bikes

  30. 30 Fungus Sep 21st, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    You know….I’ve known John White for many years now. He has fought many patent and trademark battles, and to date he has not lost.

    I’m going to enjoy watching all of this unfold.

  31. 31 Bondy3 Sep 21st, 2011 at 5:24 pm

    Tribal. ive known John White for a while, he also knows quite a bit about bikes, Also I have never seen him wear a suit.

    Also crazyhorse is not a 1 man shop, John has like 7 people working there full time!

    on a side note: I personally think this whole thing is stupid because only little girls ride choppers and real men ride 999cc sports bikes

  32. 32 hoyt Sep 21st, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    How much different is what Polaris is trying to do to Crazy Horse with the Indian Headdress than if HD tried to do this to Moto Guzzi with an eagle? Not much! There is more than one type of eagle just as there are many varieties of headdresses and Indian references.

    Stupid fight Polaris.

    And, by the f ‘in way, if Kiwi Indian submitted a similar letter to Cyril all of you would get behind him. Hypocrits.

    Go Crazy Horse.

  33. 33 John White Sep 21st, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    Hey Tribal,

    We got a few proto types you can ride right now. Crazy horse employs about ten people so yea, it’s pretty small. But is is currently larger than King’s Mountain Indian and I bet its profit margin was higher. Perhaps you should contact the key investor, Thor and see what kind of profit he made on that investment.

    How big is Big Dog right now? We are lean but we are profitable. Many have counted us down and out long ago but we are still here and plan to stay. The fact that we are still here says something about our ability to deal with the fall of the industry. Our folks work hard. Please give them the respect due. I know you are not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings but Crazy Horse have given to a lot charities and is a good company. There are yet unknown reasons why Polaris has taken this stance. Ross Clifford is running the show. He is from England so here we go again with an Englishman running Indian. He and Steve Juluis, owner of Stellican and manager of the account known as Indian which was really Thor from Iceland, are good friends. Steve Juluis and I have a short history, most if it revolving around the 2009 Indian his company sold me which was riddled with problems. I paid 38K for that bike. It was a nightmare. I am sure Polaris will do better. Not sure why they had to put another Englishman in charge. They keep saying Bentley when they should be saying Cadillac. We are in America!

  34. 34 Fungus Sep 21st, 2011 at 5:55 pm

    I think everyone needs to take a really good, and hard look at the 2 headresses side by side.

    Clearly, the Crazy Horse Headdress is much more stylish and decorative when comnpared to the Indian Motorcycle headdress.

    It’s not going to take a jury very long to realize that no one in their right mnd is ever going to be confused as to which headdress belongs to who. I mean come on……if Ford had been allowed to patent the word car or automobile, what would everyone else be making and selling these days?

  35. 35 fuji Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:27 pm

    The wind is blowing but not from the Wind God.

    More like an anal sneeze and soon there will be rectal pain.

  36. 36 Paul Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:28 pm

    Fungus. You are an idiot. Your example doesn’t make any sense. You wrote “if Ford had been allowed to patent the word car or automobile…” Since when a car is a brand? Indian is a trademarked brand. See the difference?

    You should also know that it doesn’t matter if there are some differences in the 2 logos. Of course, John White copies after changing some details. He excels at it, it seems. A judge will find that the public can be confused by the bad copy and condemn Crazy Horse. John White has a solid reputation for copying: engine, Hoka Hey, indian logo. Engine? Copied and doesn’t sell. Hoka Hey? He tried to copy the event. Stopped by threat of legal action. Indian logo. He is going to lose. Guaranteed.

  37. 37 Shifter Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:36 pm

    I think that Cyril’s record under one of his articles is around 150 comments. Let’s go guys. Let’s beat it.

  38. 38 Henry Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:39 pm

    My contribution with one more comment. I am on Polaris side. This Crazy Horse logo should disappear.

  39. 39 kc cheef Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:50 pm

    Hi Paul.
    I love a good guarantee.
    It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
    Still–nothing like a guarantee.

    Oh–Kiwi and Ziggies and a few others?
    Will they be threatened also?
    Seems like Polaris will have to enforce against ALL using the Indian name.

    I keep looking at that glass Indian Face KM put in their head dress, then looking at the Crazy Horse head dress. NO–they don’t even look close.
    KM even managed to f up an Iconic Image when they went to that clear glass face. Take a close look and report honestly on what you think of the KM face–kind of sad isn’t it?

    And Paul?
    As far as the engine not selling?
    I happen to have one in my Cheef.
    BOUGHT the engine, and have almost 35k miles on it now.
    Longest lasting engine I’ve had in it yet.
    Quite a few others out there running them also.
    Check out Paul Jrs bikes.

    Hey Tribal.
    I’ve known John for quite a while.
    As for the suit?
    I’m sure he wears one.
    But I’ve never seen him with it on.

    Here we go with another EPIC Indian Motorcycle blog on Cyrils site.

    Why can’t we all just get along?

  40. 40 kc cheef Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    Cyril–you ask us to judge the Crazy Horse Logo you show the pic of?
    I judge it pretty damn cool.
    Got a set on my tanks, and another set on my helmet.

  41. 41 John White Sep 21st, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    Paul said:

    “You should also know that it doesn’t matter if there are some differences in the 2 logos. Of course, John White copies after changing some details. He excels at it, it seems. A judge will find that the public can be confused by the bad copy and condemn Crazy Horse. John White has a solid reputation for copying: engine, Hoka Hey, indian logo. Engine? Copied and doesn’t sell. Hoka Hey? He tried to copy the event. Stopped by threat of legal action. Indian logo. He is going to lose. Guaranteed.”

    Paul, put you money where your mouth is. You said Guaranteed. Really? How about a ten dollar bet? Can you muster ten dollars? No chance in hell that Crazy Horse’s logo is infringing. We will not lose the logo but you will lose ten bucks if you can back up your so called Guarantee. I am sure your guarantee is nothing but hot air.

    Ten bucks, here is your chance to become famous. By the way, copying is not a crime if you reverse engineer it. However, trade dress must be nearly exact. Did you not follow the Doss trade dress issues with the Indian tear drop headlight. Read up on trade dress. Changing some details……..bla…..bla….bla Get informed!

    I guess you can look at the two logos and be confused. Are you confused? Yes….. about how patent and trademark law works!


  42. 42 John White Sep 21st, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    Eric’s comments:

    big company + deep pockets + lots of lawyers vs. small guy + less money + fewer laywers

    The big company with deep pockets almost always prevails.

    making a statement that “they f’ed with the wrong guy” will only make Polaris’s lawyers want to crush this issue even faster just to prove a point.I

    I predict this legal issue will be over within weeks but I imagine this (yawn) topic will be dragged through the blogosphere for months to come.

    John White Response:

    Your prediction that this will be over in weeks does not take into account that Polaris is a publicly traded company. Do you know how fast a publicly traded company moves? Board meetings, reviews, presentations, more meetings. Nothing goes out without approval. Sorry to say but this will not be over in weeks. There is no case number yet my friend. This is a friendly chat at this point. Before there is a case number there must be a “case” and to have a “case” you must decide on venue (location) and this venue issue alone can take months. Then comes discovery. So much fun but not a very fast process. When or if there is a case I will get to ask a lot of great questions. Do you really think Polaris is going to allow this to happen? Do they want their files opened up… filled with Audax and Stellican and all kinds of demons including Richard Block.

    See, you are already learning something. I would back off on the claim that this will be over in weeks. You do not need deep pockets or a lot of lawyers but you do need one smart lawyer. Mr. Craig Madson has been my patent and trademark attorney for nearly 20 years. He will draft a response and perhaps you will get to see it. You can read his last one here in this thread.

    Seriously, I do not have to come here and prove a point. My life style will not change. These kinds of things are usually done behind closed doors so I thought it would be fun to let one case get some real exposure. Its all good. Sit back, have a beer and enjoy.

  43. 43 Brett Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Let’s take a look at some of these things shall we

    Indian Fender light

    Crazy Horse Fender light

    Indian headdress logo

    Crazy Horse headdress logo

    The funniest part is all over their stuff they have Gilroy Indian references. The entire company was made to 1st try to do the fixes places like JAM, LTD. & Blackhawk Motor works do to full on trying to steal & make it their own. Sorry, but just adding some color & detail to the logo doesn’t keep it from infringing on a copyright, which Polaris BOUGHT when they bought Indian from KM.

    I just wonder, when there is a group called the Iron Indian Riders Association, why do they HATE every thing Crazyhorse & want nothing to do with the company if this is such a great company doing so much for Indian Motorcycles?

  44. 44 Brett Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:24 pm

    Hoyt you are very wrong on many levels.

    1st Kiwi makes almost all vintage Indian parts. They didn’t steal Indian’s logos & engines & try to make them their own.

    2nd, if Crazyhorse isn’t trying to steal the Indian logo, then why use a side profile of an Indian in a headdress? The only reason to make the fender light & a side profile Indian head & long headdress is to attempt to capitalize off Indian Motorcycles.

    They don’t even try to hide the fact they have stolen the Powerplus 100, made their “fixes” & Renamed it the VPlus. Why not just come up with their own EVO based motor? & If they are truely manufacturing their own motor, then why, when people contact them about the price of a Vplus motor because they are considering replacing their Powerplus 100, do they say, well it will be much easier & take less time if you just send us your Powerplus 100 & let us “fix” it.

    Then they also threaten people who had the motor worked on by them if another mechanic looks at it because after they work on it, “THE MOTOR BELONGS TO CRAZYHORSE” like you just signed some waiver that their top secret work will never been seen by anyone else?

  45. 45 Captain Mike Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    Crazy Horse/John White does not and will never belong to the American Motorcycle industry.

  46. 46 Chuck (03 & 41 Indian owner) Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:26 pm

    Had to comment on the “there are Iron Indian Riders who don’t like Crazy Horse” comment. That is a looong story best left to history. You can clearly tell from the posts here who they are.

    Dear Brett, Kiwi actually does make an Indian motor. Is that “stolen” also?

    The point of this all was the issue of the indian head/head dress being copyrighted by Indian/Polaris. I have seen that image all my life on numerous things, including someone carving it into a mountain face in the Dakota’s. Is that next?

  47. 47 kc cheef Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    Hi Brett.
    Where exactly did the following copied from your post come from?

    ”Then they also threaten people who had the motor worked on by them if another mechanic looks at it because after they work on it, “THE MOTOR BELONGS TO CRAZYHORSE” like you just signed some waiver that their top secret work will never been seen by anyone else?”

    I have a VPlus in my bike.
    No one from Crazy Horse has ever mentioned anything even remotely what you are claiming.
    My engine is mine. I send it where I want and have any work I want done on it done–by whoever I chose.
    I’ve never seen or heard anyone make a claim like you are making.
    Can you give us a source or are you just–well–fabricating?

    Also–isn’t ”stolen” a pretty strong word to be tossing around with out something to back it up?
    As in strong enough it could be considered a personal attack and be subject to violation of this boards terms?
    Sure be nice to have a civil discussion.

  48. 48 Jay Sep 22nd, 2011 at 12:07 am

    The logo DOES look like it infringes. The “ornament” DOES look like it was COPIED from Indian…doesn’t matter WHEN it was copied..infringement is infringement and Indian has a right to defend it’s logo.

    Nobody is asking Crazy Horse to give up their name….yet. However, it may be noted that the Crazy Horse Strip club has been in existence longer so maybe they will…

    If so few of those tank badges and front fender flares have been sold, it’s pretty obvious that is not a viable business so why would anyone bother trying to continue making something that nobody wants?

    Good luck with the battle but it looks like Polaris has their rights and now they have the pocketbook to pursue enforcement.

  49. 49 Jay Sep 22nd, 2011 at 12:26 am

    “By the way, copying is not a crime if you reverse engineer it”…
    …This is NOT true… You can not ‘reverse engineer’ an ornament any more than you can reverse engineer a banana.

    “However, trade dress must be nearly exact. Did you not follow the …..bla…..bla….bla”
    Actually, nearly exact is NOT a qualification. If your initiative looks to INTENTIONALLY replicate and to “farm” off of an established trade mark, you could be a redne… oops, different story…rather you could be infringing…. John – you may want to let your patent attorney handle these comments from here on out. You DO know that things you write in a public forum (like this one) can be used against you in court, right? paraphrasing your statement that “all you have to do is to tweek here and there and you are ‘good to go’ isn’t ACTUALLY a valid claim…. Your already creating more work for your attorney.

    You lost other battles and are now (likely) going to loose this “battle” as well IMHO (of course).

  50. 50 Bleeding Ears Sep 22nd, 2011 at 1:10 am

    That photo of the Crazy Horse headdress logo also shows the gas cap adaptors that JW copied from Sputhe Engineering.

    I like LOUD PIPES!

  51. 51 John White Sep 22nd, 2011 at 2:18 am


    Most bannana’s you eat are engineered. Our ornament was designed by Zambini Brothers. They were given a theme. The theme was to capture some of the traits of Crazy Horse. The price for this work was $5000. We did not reverse engineer an ornament. We hired a company to design one. The legal key to this possible battle is to know where the art came from. I do not think Crazy Horse Motorcycles owns all the Indian headdresses in the world and we can show a clear record of where our art comes from. The fact that we mount it on a fender is not part of Indian’s claims where were provided in the letter but not shown by Cyril. If you had viewed the whole letter you would see that many posts here are completely off track. I am not the spin doctor. I am clearly not as good at it as Cyril. This is why Cyril has the greatest blog in the motorcycle industry and why you are here posting and reading and perhaps gaining knowledge.

    I am pretty sure you are not understanding what is happening just yet. That is ok. Take your time and study this thread from start to end. Then ponder what might really be going on. You are off track a mile.

    Captain Bob, my old friend, I see that you have not finished your theapy yet. When will you post under your own identity? Good to hear you are still alive Mr. Sputhe. I am not part of your motorcycle industry that is for sure. You did a good job designing our square ignition cover. Got to give credit where credit is due.

    Wishing you the best of health,


    John L. White

  52. 52 KM Chief Owner Sep 22nd, 2011 at 2:24 am

    John White’s grasp of the U.S. legal system is about as firm as Ed Corbett’s grasp on reality.
    I hope the level of my sarcasm comes across properly.

  53. 53 zyon Sep 22nd, 2011 at 6:43 am

    Is Polaris going to litigate against every elementary school, high school and collage that uses a profile of an Indian?

  54. 54 Brett Sep 22nd, 2011 at 6:44 am

    My story about the motor wasn’t someone buying a Vplus….it was about someone who had Crazy Horse do work on their Indian Powerplus 100. The actual story here –

    “After rebuilding my motor, they told me it was warranteed for life and if it failed,
    they would cover the cost of having it rebuilt again by the builder of my
    choice. After it came apart not to long after that and I said I did
    not want to send it back to them, they tried to tell me
    it was no longer my motor and I had no right
    letting anyone else take it apart.”

    No longer the owners motor???? LOL

    & for those bringing up the Crazy Horse monument & the Hells Angels logo & asking if Polaris will go after them as well……..Let’s see, the Crazy Horse carving looks nothing like the Indian Motorcycle logo. Never seen a full body ontop of a horse used on any of the Indian logos on tanks ever. The Hells Angels—uuumm, a skull with a helmet & horns that has WINGS coming off the back also has NOTHING to do with the Indian Motorcycle logo.

    Sorry it is the Crazy Horse believers trying to make the claim Polaris wants to sue everyone that uses a headdress.

    As for the Zambini’s….funny how they do not deny making Indian logos & the one Crazy Horse uses is again, their main one with a few details changed. However, they also have the EXACT Crazy Horse one for sale, only their’s has an eagle head hanging off the back of the Indian that was removed on the Crazy Horse design & last I heard, the Zambini’s had the OK to do their Indian logos.

  55. 55 Harry Jones Sep 22nd, 2011 at 6:46 am

    Hey, J. White. Cyril doesn’t spin. He reports factually, reason why we all read him. You and your friends, you look more like smoke and mirrors.

  56. 56 Hungouver Sep 22nd, 2011 at 6:54 am

    @Henry Schmitt, i have been in contact with my attorney regarding your willful and disrespectful use of the name Bozo. Bozo is the protected and rightful name for my favorite clown who has nothing to do with motorbikes or any of this crap. Stop sullying his name and back off dude! LOL

  57. 57 Paul Sep 22nd, 2011 at 6:57 am

    Before writing all his non-sense John White & Co should have known that people at Polaris read Cyril’s website and even comment in it. I can imagine what Crazy Horse’s patent attorney is going to say. Mr White, can you just shut up!

  58. 58 kc cheef Sep 22nd, 2011 at 7:40 am

    Hi Paul.
    If the people at Polaris are reading this?
    Maybe one of them will comment on the fork lug issue.
    THAT seems to be a non subject at Polaris.

    Hi Brett.
    NOW I recognize who you are.
    Qualified Mechanic should have been your key word.
    Shade tree–wanna be mechanic — well reputations kind of dictate rules sometimes.
    Seems I remember a couple of buddies a few years ago wanting to learn to wrench–wanting to learn on someone elses dollar.
    They tried with another well known PP rebuilders engine–then wanted to continue the experiment with a CH rebuild.
    Seems I remember a large part of the problems were caused by 100 mph downshifts.
    Would you be a 100 MPH downshifter also?

  59. 59 juanhunglow Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:06 am

    0-2 k cheef says Polaris isn’t talking about a fork lug on the internet…well, it must be true. After all, those of us who follow his JW “legacy” suck up postings know he is the authority on all things Indian Motorcycle. Just ask him…

    Speaking of Jesus White, things must be as slow in the pile driving business as they are at crazy horse motorcycles considering the post after post of future litigation ammo he provided in this thread alone.

    Can you imagine the conversation when jw’s “hot line” lights up and kc cheef tells him it’s time to “get it on”.
    It goes something like this, ‘hey boss’, “The Test Rider here”…..Cyril Huze is pimping us again’, remember our credo…”any press is good press”. “Someday they will realize how important we are to the motorcycle industry”, “right boss”?.

    Shall I put out the legacy riders ‘UNITE’ alarm boss? Oh wait, never mind. I just read the whole thread, our boys are already in here boss !
    Call me,
    Love and Leathers…..
    your humble servant, kc cheef

  60. 60 Fungus Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:12 am

    Brett……Crazyhorse rebuilt my motor…and they do not own it…I do! 100%.

    There were no clauses or contracts to sign. As for anyone offering a lifetime guarantee…no one does that in the V-twin industry that I know of when it comes to an engine. 2 years tops is about all you are going to get.

    Whoever thought they were getting a lifetime warranty must have been smoking crack.

  61. 61 Rian Bose Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:29 am

    Clearly an infringement on a Great american icon. polaris needs To be Respectful and do the right thing. Design Your Own Darn Logo! Would you like me To Design you one?

  62. 62 Rian Bose Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:32 am

    Meaning of course Polaris Should Sue Crazyhorse! They own The Rights. Sorry for the Misunderstanding!!!

  63. 63 Ken Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:46 am

    I just hope it’s done fairly. I support Polaris but also wonder if an Indian head in general can be protected. Shouldn’t the American Indian have first right to his head?
    Once I worked with a lady who tried to patent a Wishbone shape for use as earings. The Patent Office said the chicken had first rights to the Wishbone. LOL True story

  64. 64 Brett Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:46 am

    kc cheef, you have no idea who I am. If you believe I am the one who had Crazy Horse do work on my motor, then you are wrong. I can guarantee you, CH has never seen a penney of my money or any part from the motor of my bike.

    However, if you are trying to claim Blackhawk or Joe Malfa aren’t qualified mechanics, you are sadly mistaken & they have been doing the fixes & figuring out upgrades for the Powerplus 100 long before CH jumped on board.

  65. 65 Brett Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:52 am

    KC Cheef you have no idea who I am & Crazy Horse has never touched my motor. Mine was done by Posie at P & M Powertrain. Haven’t had an issue since. To bad the people who went the Crazy horse route can’t say the same thing.

  66. 66 hoyt Sep 22nd, 2011 at 11:35 am

    @Brett – thanks for the links above.

    There is a distinct difference between a Crazy Horse logo and the Polars Indian logo, which begs the question further…

    At what point does the legal system decide 2 logos are different enough? The HD eagle looking to the left vs. the Guzzi eagle looking to the right? Does the more aggressive facial expression of Crazy Horse vs. the more relaxed facial expression of the original Indian satisfy?

    (not HD’s eagle with the raised wings above its head, but the one with wings out to the side)


    I didn’t say Kiwi stole anything. Likewise, I didn’t say JW did or didn’t steal anything. I don’t know him.

    Kiwi does use the Indian logo on their bikes. Vintage or not, it does not matter. So, if Kiwi was (maybe is) in a similar situation, the dialogue on this site would be different towards him than Crazy Horse.

    THAT line is much thinner than the line that differentiates the 2 logos that you provided with your links above.

  67. 67 Rider2 Sep 22nd, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    Why is it that we are always coming back to the same bozos getting in trouble in this industry?

    Seems like there is constantly the same group of “business” people getting C&D letters, lawsuits and having to fight this and that, and justify themselves on blogs and forums.

    Looks like a lot of time spent and lost (and money and respect) instead of trying to find good and legitimate ideas to help the MC industry move forward.

    Victory will go after everybody who has something to do with the Indian brand, no matter if it’s the name, t-shirts, logos or parts. Try to have the name of your shop be put into a HD bar&shield logo and see how fast HD sends his lawyers to your door. Victory will do the same. The Crazy Horse head looks very similar to the Indian head and that’s good enough to fight the trademark. People who don’t know any better could be confused and that’s what Victory is all about.

    End of story

  68. 68 PPSoutrider Sep 22nd, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    Ed C.: You don’t know shit about the “alleged” KM fork lug issue. You tried to bait me into giving you some info when there was no info to give. You’re a spinner when it comes to Indian Motorcycles. Go lay by your dish with Johnboy!!!

  69. 69 John Rezner Sep 22nd, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    Rider2. You summarized the issue very well. Polaris should punish Crazy Horse for trying to copy just enough not to be caught. Apparently John White excites himself at this little game and tries to present himself as an innocent victim. There are many logos to be created for a Crazy Horse without using a headdress inspired by Indian Motorcycle. I guess the guy has no imagination or no money to pay for a good logo designer. Judge will say GUILTY.

  70. 70 Dave Sep 22nd, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    My daddy always told me “Never get in a piss’n contest with a skunk.”

  71. 71 John White Sep 22nd, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    Dear Cyril Huze Bog Readers,

    We are nearly 75 posts into this thing now. All the comments have been great. Keep in mind that I did not start this thing. Polaris sent me what they believe is a concern. They sent a nice letter and would like to talk to me about their concerns.

    Patent and trademark law is complicated. This is why it is best to hire a good attorney. There are some steps that will take place. Not very many folks have real experience in this situation. This is why I am glad that Cyril has posted this letter. Some think our logo is like many other logos and that Polaris is overreaching. Some think CH should be sued and go to hell for cloning their logo. The one great thing is that we do not have a shortage of opinions.

    Many of us are involved in the motorcycle community. We see law suits fly back and forth all the time but we rarely get to see the details because the lawyers do not want those details exposed. This kind of situation is going on all around us. Perhaps you have made something that someone has copied or you feel angry because someone copied something. How do you really know what the rules are until you study it and if everything is closed off then how can you really know what is happening?

    What happened between S&S and Harley over their disputes? What really took place between Indian and Kawasaki over the fender issue and the “Drifter”. What led to Indian’s purchase of Doss’s teardrop headlight? What makes a trademark solid and others covered with “warts”? When do you stand up and fight back and when to you cave and retreat?

    I am an American. I am an inventor. I am a business owner. I am a patent owner. I have just as much a right to stand for what I feel is right as you do. I welcome your comments, good or bad. Yeah some hurt but that is the pain you get for taking risk.

    We will have a response letter. Then perhaps some of these questions will get answered. I said I would share them with all of you. Most would not have the balls to do that. At my late age am tired of everythiing being behind closed doors. Perhaps you could give a dam. Well then don’t read them or make a comment. Thanks to those that have taken the time to express.


  72. 72 Captain Bob Sep 22nd, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    Mr. White

    You have me confused with someone else. I post on a number of forums including this one as Captain Bob. I am not the person(s) who posted as “Jay” or “Captain Mike”. This is the first and only post by Captain Bob on this thread.

    Alan Sputhe

  73. 73 KM Chief Owner Sep 22nd, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    The headresses posted by Brett for both look very similar down to the number of feathers on the headress. People could easily argue that they may be updated versions of the same thing which is what Polaris fear–their product being confused with anything having to do with John White. As for American Chopper–i’ve only heard those engines referred to as “Indian motors”. Look close enough too after you scrape the Gilroy tags off. HD wouldn’t be nearly as kind in something like this. I’ve seen them close dealerships over less. But it is easy to see how easily confusing this is when everyone is talking lawsuits and John White is talking about the sport of kings which is polo. Besides, who the hell would elevate himself to that rank when we kicked the people that bowed down to a king out of this country hundreds of years ago?

  74. 74 53sam Sep 22nd, 2011 at 6:00 pm

    A judge will see the case from the point of view of a consumer. A non informed biker seeing a motorcycle with skirted fenders, a powerplus engine, an indian logo on front fender and tank may think it’s a genuine Indian Motorcycle Co. bike. That’s enough for you JW to be condemned. And you should be. You didn’t create the name “Crazy Horse” by accident. You try from the start to assimilate your company to a better aftermarket Indian motorcycle. You know it. Your intent to profit from the Indian name and appearance is very clear to me. You are guilty and if you were not a tiny company without meaningful activity you would have been caught sooner. It’s a shame that reputable companies like Polaris have to spend time and money to stop people like you from abusing trade marks and damaging their brands. No respect for you.

  75. 75 Smittydog Sep 22nd, 2011 at 7:05 pm

    That indian logo is the trademark of Indian motorcycles , you would not try to use the bar and sheild,we know who would be knocking on your door.

  76. 76 kc cheef Sep 22nd, 2011 at 9:01 pm

    Hi PPScoutrider
    Of course I know s–t about the fork lug.
    I helped discover it on a KM bike that had been laid down.
    Chris Bernauer refused to speak of it after I sent him the pics.
    Well–He did let me know that the ONLY purpose the lug serves is to protect the tanks;)
    THEN he refused to discuss it further.

    I suspect YOU also know about it but want to keep it a secret.
    Hell it’s posted in numerous places on the internet and was quite a conversation starter.
    My own suspicion is–and it’s only a suspicion — is you’ve experienced it first hand, or at least seen it first hand.
    SNODAK ring a bell?

    Pics tell part of the story.


    You know as well as I do there have been at least 2 of them fixed by Indian dealers.
    And you know as well as I do that the fix appears to be frame replacement.
    Another was fixed in a garage attached to a home in Nevada not a frame replacement–a weld job that kind of got snuck by –I’m not sure you’d know about that one–but I am sure you’d know who did the fixing to keep from replacing a frame.
    Now how about we talk about the EFI issues.
    I’m sure you are of the opinion I don’t know s–t about that either–I’d like you to educate me.

  77. 77 John White Sep 22nd, 2011 at 9:05 pm

    KM Chief Owner,

    Take your best shot at Gilroy. Little do you know that your fancy 38K KM bike is sporting left and right engine cases cast from left over Gilroy molds. Even the heads are cast from left over Gilroy molds. Gilroy designed the bike you ride. The molds were not part of the purchase of the assets from (CMA) California Management Association’s sale to Stellican. The molds were not recovered and were not part of the auction either. So how did Stellican end up with left over engine casting molds and left over head casting molds from the Gilroy era? Who was the rightful owners of these assets? Why were these assets not part of the sale? Why did Stellican leave 300 perfectly good engines sitting in Michigan and then go ahead and cast new ones from the same exact molds?

    I purhcased my molds from the auctioneer. I made a legal transaction. These and other facts are why this story gets deeper and deeper. You want to take a shot at our engines. At least we legally own the molds. TP Engineering does the machine work. This is not about our engines anway, it is about the logos. Zambini Brothers did the art work. They were paid well to do this art work. It is nice work. Here are some code words for ya. They are the keys to the story behind the bike you think is all original. Learn some real history about your bike. Be careful, you might not like what you learn.

    Uniboring Machine
    Joe Leon
    National Pattern

    Can you describe what these three names have to do with the bike you are riding? If not, then you need to do some homework.


  78. 78 kc cheef Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:22 pm

    Hi Brett.
    I never mention Joe or Frank.
    I never said either of them weren’t qualified or not.
    I was referring to another ”mechanic” from the NE that I know.
    Him and his side kick went through a number of rebuilds.
    Went through one of the big threes rebuilds in a pretty short time.
    Took a little longer for them to trash out a CH rebuild but they managed to get it done.
    The ”mechanic” I refer to is (or was) in a kind of a learning curve back then.
    Learning NOT to downshift in triple digits–and learning that he wasn’t capable of being a motor man.
    He gave it a hell of a shot–but couldn’t afford to fix his own (and his buds) f-ups out of his own pocket.
    He just couldn’t figure out to quit TINKERING and leave well enough alone.

    Let’s be completely fair here Brett.
    If you follow the Gilroy world you know as well as I that EVERY builder who adopted the PP 100 had problems rebuilding them.
    Posie–Frank–Joe–Crazy Horse–they all had issues in the beginning.
    Some of those folks just back their builds better than others some of them figured out problems sooner than others–some of them have kind of abandoned the PP 100.

  79. 79 Last Resort Sep 23rd, 2011 at 5:39 am

    I think John White is full of B.S and so is KC. Who am I? I am Last Resort. I feel that I’m the real person who should speak up for all Indian riders and owners, because I live in California and a self pro-claimed head of Iron Indian Riders, and if I believe your sh*t stinks, I’ll make sure everyone thinks your sh*t stinks too. I only support those who join my clan, and I make it clear that I can exile you from being liked by a majority of other Indian riders. I also like to hide women from my wife and pretend I’m single, and what are you going to do about it? If you are not liked by me, you will be liked by no one. And John White, I do not like you, but only because I ride a BMX bike and pretend like I’m 16 again. Don’t mess with me John, I will feel like I have more power than you. I will side with Polaris because I have nothing better to do, and I am just an angry Individual at heart with nothing good to say about anyone who doesn’t kiss my rump. Kiss my Rump! OR ELSE!

  80. 80 Rider2 Sep 23rd, 2011 at 9:41 am

    It doesn’t matter if John White is an American, an inventor, a patent owner or a crook (or all of them at the same time). Polaris now owns the trademark and can come after whoever they want who threatens their trademark. Again, JW’s logo is similar and consequently will be questioned, the same way that if I was designing a similar logo and call my company CrazyHorse (no space) Motorcycle (with no s), I would probably hear from Mr White very fast. HD does the same as well as any other manufacturer in any industry.

    It would have been nice to hear from Kiwi to see how he will handle his deal. I don’t think they are ready to take on a full blown Victory dealership to be able to continue using the Indian name, logos etc…. for his business.

    I am sure there will be a little of battle between Victory and everybody that has been surfing (poorly I must say) the Indian wave for the past few years… guys with “indians” powered by S&S engines, then the “new” Indian then Victory. That doesn’t even include the ones working on the original Indian, before all those morons started screwing around with it (the guys in Gilroy, Julius, etc…). And that’s not counting the guys overseas (Europe and Japan mainly).

    By the way Polaris still don’t have an Marketing Director for the Indian brand…. we were all hoping for Art Welch to get this job as he is such a good ambassador for them 🙂

  81. 81 Gregory Sep 23rd, 2011 at 10:36 am

    The original point of this article was to discuss Trademark infringement. To find out more about Trademark Law I contacted the law firm of Dewey, Cheetum, and Howe (pun). They referenced me to a discussion on the USPTO.Gov website:
    “Basically, “likelihood of confusion” means that consumers are likely to be confused by the use of similar marks on related goods and services, such that consumers mistakenly think that all the goods and services are coming from the same company, when they’re really not.
    There are a lot of factors that go into this analysis, but let me give you a very basic example. Let’s say you use the brand name “TEE MARQEE” for your t-shirts and there’s another company that uses “T.MARKEY” for their hats. That’s a problem. Because the marks are similar in sound and hats and t-shirts are often produced by the same company (meaning those goods are related), there’s a likelihood of confusion.
    Remember: same or similar mark; related goods and services. So, in this case, when consumers hear “T.MARKEY,” they’re going to assume that both the hats and the t-shirts are coming from the same company. That’s a likelihood of confusion.”
    We can all armchair quarterback this one. It really will be in the hands of the lawyers should it go that route. Personal feelings about John or his company will not play any part in this.

  82. 82 Fungus Sep 23rd, 2011 at 10:55 am

    Last Retard…..thanks for enlightening all of us as to your being the master of your own domain…the koolade runs deep over there. spew it any way you want to…your words show the world how truly pitiful you are. Thanks for the laugh!

  83. 83 Rick Peyton Sep 23rd, 2011 at 11:23 am

    You all need to get out and ride. All this online bickering is just stupid. Screw this crap.

  84. 84 hoyt Sep 23rd, 2011 at 11:51 am

    @Gregory – best written comment. Mostly agree.

    What will be interesting is if a judge (not lawyers) realizes that certain products have “levels” of increasing awareness and knowledge. As consumers get more involved and educated the likelihood of confusion diminishes. You would think the likelihood of confusion even diminishes at the point of sale for a newbie when it comes to $18+ product.

    The moto world is one of these industries whereas the t-shirt/hat world is not. Someone new to motorcycling is not about to buy a Colorado Norton Works Norton out of confusion that they thought they were buying a British Norton. Same could be said for a Kiwi Indian. Will the same be said for Crazy Horse?

  85. 85 Brett Sep 23rd, 2011 at 11:55 am

    Well Cheef, I’ sure we both know the guy, but it isn’t me. Unless NE has become WI 🙂 I have just heard & read enough about JW to know he could have been a legend with the Indian Riders & done alot of good. Instead there is hate between them, much like Aardvark.

    Again, bottom line CH may have been involved with Gilroy, but they weren’t with KM or Polaris & their marks are ripping off Indians marks.

    Oh & for the record, I know what Ramsden means…casting comes to mind 😉

  86. 86 KM Chief Owner Sep 23rd, 2011 at 11:56 am

    You must have read someone else’s post, John White, because you put claims out there that I never made. Looked at my KM Chief next to my Gilroy Chief this morning and the engines look the same from about 5 feet out but when you look closer, they’re not close. All your code words and chicken little cries about everything failing have been out there for a while. To me they come across more as the cries of a snake oil salesman more than someon who is looking to help a community. As for an original bike? That comment coming from the guy who admits to have simply bought the castoffs from the Gilory attempt? Pot meet kettle. I guess one man’s trash is another’s gold. Especially after you scrapped off the Indian logos.
    Doesn’t matter in the end. No one’s made a perfect machine. Ride’em till they break then fix them. Motorcycles, cars, trucks, whatever. Putting other people’s work down simply to bring you up doesn’t make you taller at all.
    As has been pointed out, this is about the trademark. You have positioned yourself and claimed to be in the same industry as Indian and are putting out a product that bears direct similarities to another established company’s trademark. It is misleading at best in my opinion but then I’m just a regular guy that doesn’t play polo much. Enjoy your game. I know your attorneys will.

  87. 87 John White Sep 23rd, 2011 at 6:47 pm

    KM Chief Owner,

    I guess you missed the Ramsden mark on your new engine. The engine in your Gilroy is either a Falco or a Mansfield then because only the latest Gilroy owners received the new engines cast from the semi-permanent molds made by National Pattern and cast by Ramsden, the same folks that cast the engine in your KM bike.

    The new molds came after the Mansfield molds. If your engine has a “M” on the right side just above where the oil pump is mounted then you have a Mansfield case which was cast at the Mansfield, Ohio facility. If your engine blew up then it probably is a Falco and you will not find any marks on those cases. The sleeve issues were in the first 1000 engine cases made at Falco.

    The point I am making is that your KM bike has an engine that was cast using the semi-permanent molds that National Pattern made for Gilroy. Uniboring has some role in this. Uniboring was the machine shop that machined the cases. KM’s engine is not original or all-new, it is clearly cast from left over molds from Gilroy. This was confirmed by Chris Bernauer, General Manager for KM. He told me this while I was at the factory shortly after buying my 2009 Chief in January of 2009.

    Back to the trademark issue.

    I did send a second letter to Cyril. He did not wish to post it. So I posted it. It is a response to the scud that KM sent us 5 years ago. The biggest concern for Polaris is facing is what is called “laches” which is a term used in patent and trademark law.

    They sent a scud 5 years ago. We responded and they backed off. They looked at our mark and decided it did not infringe or they failed to police for 5 years. One or the other. Scuds are sent to test the waters. My message is that I am not afraid of scud missles. They send them thinking the small guy in the roll up door shop will cave and run and beg for mercy. Crazy Horse is not a one man shop with one roll up door and is not the only company I own. Regardless, scuds are scuds and it depends on what it lands on.

    I read the Last Resort message on this board and I find it hard to believe that the leader of the Iron Indian Riders would write such a post. I do not believe this was really Mike Surrail. Mike does like to ride bicycles and was once a great competitor in this field. I wish no beef with Mike or the IIRA.

    I do realize many in that group were upset when I purchased the PowerPlus engine program that was left to die on the floors of Rausche Racing. When I went about fixing the sleeve issues with the engine I exposed many issues that JAM and Posie and Blackhawk missed. When I explained these problems it pissed off many engine owners because they did not believe I was right about the sleeve issues or the backwards oil tank hoses. In addition, I put Blackhawk and other rebuilders in a bad situation becasue they had rebuilt many of engine and now some were coming back with sleeve issues. Now all of them acknowledge the sleeve issues were real.

    They do a fine job. However, we are the manufacturer of this engine. They are rebuilders.

    With regards to Scottdog and his rebuild, I said his engine is warranted for life. He refuses to allow us to fix his engine. We worked on his engine in the very early stages so we started out making some mistakes. Our warrantee still stands. We would be happy to fix his engine or he can send it to TP and Tom will repair it for him. Scottdog was a hired consultant when we purchased the engines from PAS. I agreed to provide him a free engine and that offer still stands. He wants one with an Indian logo on it. For obvious reasons I cannot do that.

    Our response is coming next week. Then everyone can see how to respond to scud missiles like this one.

    If you want to know more about how to identify your PowerPlus engine case or heads or cylinders then go to http://www.indianlegacyriders.com

    When and if this dispute comes to a point where we can have a meeting I hereby offer to fly everyone that has responded here and is interested in how this pans out at my expense first class airfare and motel and food expenses. I make this offer even if you posted against me. If you are truly interested in how patent and trademark works and how it is used in the motorcycle industry then please let me know if you would like to witness the meeting in the conference room.

    John L. White

  88. 88 kc cheef Sep 23rd, 2011 at 7:01 pm

    Hi Brett.
    As for JW becoming a legend with Indian riders?
    Are you referring to the Iron Indian Riders?
    WHY would anyone want to be a bootlicker to a bunch of wannabe self important know it all sheeple?
    LMAO–John IS a legend in the Indian Motorcycle riding world.
    Except for Last Resort.
    I REALLY enjoy that post.
    Can’t believe he actually came on here and posted.

  89. 89 John White Sep 23rd, 2011 at 7:42 pm

    I spelled Mike’s last name wrong. Sorry. it is Michael Sarrail and he it is my understanding that he did not make that post.

  90. 90 kc cheef Sep 23rd, 2011 at 8:23 pm

    Well dang it!!
    That post wasn’t from the real Last Resort?
    Could have sworn it was him.
    EVERYTHING just kind of fit.

  91. 91 courtney Sep 23rd, 2011 at 10:10 pm

    RE JW’s post: just wanted to jump in here and Post(!) so as to reserve my First Class seat to Vegas, if in fact this is where all of this goes down. BTW, I prefer Circus Circus, not some cheap ass motel, although I Will fly SouthWest, coach….

    Just saying. Thanks.

  92. 92 John White Sep 23rd, 2011 at 10:30 pm

    If this ends up in a federal court the mediation will be in Chicago. Rest assured it will not come until at least next summer so let’s hope it is before the weather heats up.

  93. 93 John White Sep 23rd, 2011 at 10:36 pm

    Sep 23rd, 2011 at 10:10 pm
    RE JW’s post: just wanted to jump in here and Post(!) so as to reserve my First Class seat to Vegas, if in fact this is where all of this goes down. BTW, I prefer Circus Circus, not some cheap ass motel, although I Will fly SouthWest, coach….

    Just saying. Thanks.

    If it ends up in Vegas I will reserve a suit at the MGM for ya. I would recommend this place if it ends up in Chicago:

    Let Trump be your guide on your next trip to Chicago. Trump International Hotel & Tower® Chicago offers a multitude of different hotel packages, vacation packages to suit the every whim and need of our guests. Our Chicago hotel packages and specials invite you to explore Chicago and enjoy the best the city has to offer, while enjoying the luxurious amenities and services of our hotel. Our hotel specials are the ultimate deal in Chicago vacation travel, whatever you are looking for.

    I think it is a five star.


  94. 94 John White Sep 23rd, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    Newsflash, Last Resort did not write this. I will pay $3000 to anyone that can name the real author:

    I think John White is full of B.S and so is KC. Who am I? I am Last Resort. I feel that I’m the real person who should speak up for all Indian riders and owners, because I live in California and a self pro-claimed head of Iron Indian Riders, and if I believe your sh*t stinks, I’ll make sure everyone thinks your sh*t stinks too. I only support those who join my clan, and I make it clear that I can exile you from being liked by a majority of other Indian riders. I also like to hide women from my wife and pretend I’m single, and what are you going to do about it? If you are not liked by me, you will be liked by no one. And John White, I do not like you, but only because I ride a BMX bike and pretend like I’m 16 again. Don’t mess with me John, I will feel like I have more power than you. I will side with Polaris because I have nothing better to do, and I am just an angry Individual at heart with nothing good to say about anyone who doesn’t kiss my rump. Kiss my Rump! OR ELSE!

  95. 95 kc cheef Sep 23rd, 2011 at 11:17 pm

    I’m with you courtney.
    Naked Girl Midget Wrestlers!!!!
    Where’s Big (Ahem) Al?

  96. 96 CA Indian Rider Sep 24th, 2011 at 12:48 am

    John White,
    You don’t need to be afraid of Michael Sarrail. He’s a Panzy. I’ve ridden with him in the past. He likes to stay in the backround and watch, observe, and listen, and then have others do the dirty work for him. He’s not a leader, he’s a poser.

    He’s a self proclaimed leader of the Iron Indians Riders group. No one should bow down to him. Surprises me that right away you even needed to correct the spelling of his last name. Who cares! He’s a Panzy. He couldn’t kick his own ass (let alone anyone else’s) if his leg were on backwards.

    Keep up the good work John. Who cares what that Panzy thinks and any of his supporters. I never supported the guy, especially even more so after I found out that he likes to threaten people. What kind of leader is that?

    You offered a lot of riders alternatives. And you helped me with my 03 Gilroy. Panzy boy sure didn’t care to lend a hand. But you did. You’re the Man John! Keep it up and lets see where Polaris’s scud lands. Underdogs should have their day!!!

  97. 97 kc cheef Sep 24th, 2011 at 8:21 am

    Well there you have it.
    CA Indian Rider nails it now.
    Pretty good description, and a fair judgement.
    Only mistake I see in CA Indian Riders post is the name of the organization.
    It is the Iron Indian Riders ASSOCIATION–not Group.
    Long history follows that ASSOCIATION.
    It was actually started by the 3 Amigos, and kind of changed hands in a hostile take over.

    John White who they deem and condemn as a force of dissension in the Indian Riders world actually GAVE them the internet web address which they couldn’t obtain because one of the actual founding members would not turn it over until JW persuaded him to.

    My own wish would be this thread get back to the original topic.
    This could be one of the most informative and interesting threads in this blogs history.
    We all have a chance to actually watch Indian and other motorcycle history unfold through the litigation that is being threatened.
    We all hear about these lawsuits everyday in the motorcycle world but we have never had the opportunity to watch one unfold step by step.
    My guess would be the BS will continue until the thread is locked down.
    My guess would also be it would be a shame to lose it.
    LOT of interesting FACTS could come out of this thread but those
    facts might not reflect well on certain parties.

    Carry on.
    One last observation.
    I don’t care for people who post under others identities–chicken s–t is what it is.
    It has happened to me on the Iron Indian Riders Association board.
    The board owners response was?
    Oh well too bad.
    LMAO–things always seem to square away in the end.

  98. 98 big al Sep 24th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    My money is on special ed (kc cheef) putting up the false posts. He’s known to be a coward that way. Heard he’s also pissed off another indian group and is no longer there either LOL. Good on you John for mentioning that post wasnt Mike’s. Glad to see some stuff is finally being dropped. As for Ed he needs to get back on the small bus and stop drinking the kool-aid.


  99. 99 Ludiebug Sep 24th, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    The real reason the iron Indian Rider’s Ass doesn’t endorse or like John white or Crazy Horse has nothing to do with the issue.They are a rider’s group with opinions like anyone else,good or bad.

    I had first hand experience with John White’s knowledge of the problems associated with the Power Plus motor.He had diagnosed some of the problems with the engines and had found ways to fix them.He was instrumental with repairing the problem in my bike.It has passed along to a couple of other owners and I believe it is still running like a freight train.

    The original idea behind creating Crazy Horse was to help the Gilroy era owners who had been left high and dry by the company.many of us were concerned with availability of parts,service and information.How is this any different from the other shops out there that were doing what they could to help us out?I don’t see anyone crying about Blackhawk,Malfa or Posey.Is this about the fact that certain persons didn’t want to see Mr White succeed or is it really about the trademark infringement issue?I remember the Drifter having many of the same exact things being claimed to be copied.

    I do have the original logo on my ’46 Chief and our ’03 Vintage alongside the Crazy Horse logo.After reading this article I asked several friends to compare them and the verdict was that they each have similarities but are all different in several ways.I wonder how the KM and Polaris logos match up…I’m certain there will be some discrepancy there also.

  100. 100 WheresTheBeef Sep 24th, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    Wonder why Art Welch hasn’t chimed in on this one. Thought he has some experience with this type of legal stuff.

  101. 101 Dan Gannon Sep 24th, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    DangerousDan here, John White is my friend and I don’t care for the trash being tossed at him and his fine group of people. If you talk trash about CrasyHorse it is obvious to me that you do not really know of them and what they stand for.

  102. 102 kc cheef Sep 24th, 2011 at 9:50 pm

    Last Resorts post was taken down and now it’s back up.
    If that post WAS made by Last Resort I’m first in line for the $3,000.
    And–Make a Wish will be damn happy with the donation that’s coming their way.

    Hey Big Al–me a coward?
    Using false names and posting false things?
    Uhhhh—I’m the one in this thread who posted my REAL name along with a phone number.

  103. 103 kc cheef Sep 24th, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    Ahh–now I recognize big al.
    How’s the weather up there?

  104. 104 kc cheef Sep 24th, 2011 at 10:06 pm

    Hey big al.
    HOW much money you want to place on the bet.
    I’m good for your number.
    Make a Wish might as well be REALLY happy at the end of this blog.
    Ante up big (ahem) al.
    Or–you just yakking again.
    I’m willing to trust Cyril to call the winner.
    Cyril can provide the Internet address of the person posting.
    Not going to be my address.
    You’re saying it was me.
    I’m saying you’re full of it.
    $3,000 bucks is a fair enough number but hell–I’m willing to double down.
    Your call.

  105. 105 John White Sep 24th, 2011 at 10:39 pm

    “Crazy Horse dreamed and went into the world where there is nothing but the spirits of all things. That is the real world that is behind this one, and everything we see here is something like a shadow from that world. He was on his horse in that world, and the horse and himself on it and the trees and the grass and the stones and everything were made of spirit, and nothing was hard, and everything seemed to float. His horse was standing still there, and yet it danced around like a horse made only of shadow, and that is how he got his name, which does not mean that his horse was crazy or wild, but that in his vision it danced around in that queer way”.

    Black Elk Speaks, page 65

    The more you learn about Crazy Horse the more enlightened we all become.


  106. 106 John White Sep 24th, 2011 at 11:32 pm

    Dear Wheresthebeef,

    I am wondering about your comment below:

    Wonder why Art Welch hasn’t chimed in on this one. Thought he has some experience with this type of legal stuff.

    I met Art Welch in Mexico. He was wearing an Indian T-Shirt. I introduced him to my wife and sons. Art is a nice guy. I have seen plenty of shots taken at him on this blog and this may be one reason he has not logged his opinion.

    It takes a thick skin to come on here and post and get roasted. It takes an even thicker skin to fight on. I am sure Art would rather not involve himself and risk getting attacked.

    This thread is being watched by folks all over the world and I have received many calls. The formal response letter is coming so that everyone can see how to respond to scuds.

    Some folks have made very strong comments against our logo, thinking they know patent and trademark law. I have defended my patents and trademarks for more than 20 years. I can clearly see that some folks do not understand trademark law. This is ok. It is complicated, full of twists and turns that will make your head spin. It takes a life time to understand it. I do not know of anyone that would openly share a pending situation like this. If you are a beginner you will get crushed and since no one openly shares that means many do get crushed. Take Hog Air for an example. Brett invented an air plane powered by a Harley engine. He called his company Hog Air. It was a wonderful company with a super low cost plane that could fly to 12,000 feet. Harley crushed it………………because Brett did not have the money to fight. Seriously, why does Harley care about Hog Air.

    Another example is Motus. Loutus made a stink. Motus stands for Motorcycle United States for god sakes. These are just too examples of overreaching that cannot be defended due to high legal costs.

    I am not a beginner. I am on the other end of the scale. That is why I have the guts to lay it all out. I am old now and it is time to share. There is no need to fear a two page letter just because the name on the letterhead is from one of the most powerful IP law firms on earth. Look at it as a blessing. God bless the guy that made the decision to go after Crazy Horse Motorcycles LLC.


  107. 107 kc cheef Sep 25th, 2011 at 8:29 am

    How much money are you willing to put up big al?
    I’ll match your bet.
    Winner sends it on to Make a Wish.
    Ante up big guy.

  108. 108 Vintage Sep 25th, 2011 at 11:12 am

    Pretty funny story about the two hood ornaments seeing that they both come from the Seattle area , the guy who made the glass indians is from Bellevue Washington and had nothing to do with Indian, the other the John White version which is a thousand times better looking , when I go to Confederation of Clubs meetings not only do people stare at my chief they always ask about the hood ornament!

    Oh it wasnt me that wrote the crap about mike sarrail (last resort) I dont give a shit about any of there nonsense! The iira or any of there asshole members!

    Have fun if you ride an Indian enjoy it , if it doesnt run , call Crazyhorse tell em you bashed John White , he wont care , he’ll still sell a “better” engine than the POS Gilroy or Stellican had! John White is your friend , he cares about Indian and he cares about the naysayers having a chance with there chosen motorcycle!

    Leathernecks MC

  109. 109 bigalyts Sep 25th, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    Round and round we go! This Guy John White has Brass Balls, for sure. If you were in a room with Him his ass would be in all 4 corners. You got to agree that Polaris Industry’s certainally didn’t buy much. What the hell is Indian Motorcycles? They must be good for 20 Bikes a Year. Talk about throwing good money after Bad!

  110. 110 kc cheef Sep 25th, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    Hello big al?
    You just yakking?
    Or do you want to step up and back your statement?

  111. 111 CA Indian Rider Sep 25th, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    This should be interesting how it unfolds with Polaris. If you actually take the three indian head ornaments, currently used, gilroy, and crazy horse, none of them look the same. So good luck with that one!!

    I don’t know who this Art Welch is and don’t care. But what I have noticed, is that anytime anyone posts anything positive about this guys dealership in Minnesota or mentions anything at all on the Indian Community Forum, Mr Panzy (Mikey) pulls it down right away, as if purposely giving a lack of support to this dealer. This has happened over and over again. Mr Panzy runs this forum.
    He has done this not only with this guy, but anyone else who’s posts he doesn’t like. Not true to form, like Cyril’s Blog. Once it’s up it’s up. If this little maggot (Mikey) wants to run things on his site how he wishes, all the power to him. But what kind of leader takes down anything to help promote Indian? It didn’t take long to figure out what Mike was all about. Didn’t ride with him more than three times. Self worshipping little guy if you ask me.

    Thats right Mikey. I’m on your community Forum, and I’ve been eyeing it. But can you guess who? There’s a mole and you’ll never figure out who it is. Don’t worry, I know this will cause a Stir on your forum, (and I’ve already been watching) but think back a good decade and you might remember me.

    Back to the design of Crazy Horse. I’ve read Black Elk speaks. Good Book. John, good luck with this, and try not spend all your money on lawyers. That is the one place that Polaris might stick it to ya since they got deep pockets.

    Your Buddy in Covina, CA

  112. 112 Vintage Sep 25th, 2011 at 7:03 pm

    Why would anyone ever go to the iira forum , I did for awhile met alot of phony fucks in there , mostly the folks who rode Hondas before they stepped on Indians because they were intimidated by those Harley riders “they wouldnt even talk to me,or let me park my honda next to there Harley” , Yep we know who you guys are !

    You should all be happy with Polaris more metric rice trash ,it will end the same way !

    At the least Crazyhorse is American , the bikes are American the engines are American ! Like someone else said earlier , what are they gonna do make 5 or 6 bikes a year ? How many did Stellican make? 450 and sold how many 90 ? thats alot of inventory , then again who wants a Gilroy copy for twice the price ?

    To last resort and maldev , your punks period!!

  113. 113 John White Sep 25th, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    The IIRA is filled with good people that only wish to ride Indians and get some service. I have plenty of customers that are in that organization. When I was a member I was green and I said a lot of things that have come back to haunt me. I did not handle the introduction of my discoveries about the engine in a tactful way. I played in a drinking game at the Indian Rally at Branson and made a complete ass out of myself. I hurt some good people including the host of the Branson event. I never thought the owners of the IIRA would ban me or remove my posts or actively try to get their members to black ball Crazy Horse. I did not think they would actively call my customers directly and try to disrupt my business. I blasted them for it. Then I grew up a bit.

    I found out that the IIRA did not have the domain name http://www.ironindianriders.com which was taken from them wrongfully. A disgruntled founder of the IIRA was voted off and was unhappy with the vote count so he took the domain name and refused to release it. A lot of good folks tried to get it back but the tension was equal to that between the White House and the Republicans.

    So I gave it a try. I tried and failed but I kept trying. It took over a year but I was successful in getting the domain name and I turned it over to the rightful owners. I thought this would make up for some of the bad shit I said about the IIRA leadership. I have been passing the olive branch ever since.

    Today I look past the leadership and try to be friends with the members. Its hard because the leadership does everything they can to disrupt this. I still keep trying to work with them.

    I have no beef with the members of the IIRA and I try not to get into a beef with the leadership. That is why I wrote to Cyril Huze when I saw a post under the name “Last Resort”, the name Mike Sarrail is known for. The post was just too crazy to believe. The post was damaging to the IIRA. Cyril said he usually leaves the posts up because some guys say things and then regret it and then are exposed. I wrote that no matter how mad Last Resort is at Crazy Horse he would not write those words. Cyril took it off but its right back up again. This tells me that perhaps Last Resort did indeed write this post. If this is true then you now can see why it has been impossible to deal with.

    Crazy Horse Motorcycles LLC helps Gilroy owners. We created the Indianlegacyriders.com website to collect data that can support all Indian riders including the 1901 to 1953, the 1999 to 2003 Gilroy era, and the Stellican KM era.

    It is too bad that the leadership of the IIRA blocks its membership from seeing many things that can help the Indian Rider. I am banned for life from the site and cannot post. Many good people have been banned for posting their views.

    Leaders that try to withhold or block the truth from their members are not leaders but instead control freaks. We are witnessing this in Egypt, Libya and Syria. Sooner or later the people will come forward. Perhaps some will do so on this now famous thread.

    I wish the best of luck for the good people of the IIRA. I also keep my heart open to the day when the leadership forgives me for some of my past trouble and allows a free and open debate without fear of being banned or black balled. I realize many think I am stupid for wishing to have a good relationship but I will not give up trying. Do we need the support of the leadership? Of course not.

    Crazy Horse found its own market. We build V-Twin engines for the custom bike world. Our engines are in the who’s who of custom builders. We lead in the donation of engines to charity. We sell our engines worldwide. We also are the leader in helping Gilroy era motorcycle owners. We do not need the leadership of the IIRA’s support. Their efforts to blackball us have failed and they have failed to serve the members they represent.

    I wish nothing but the best of health for the members of IIRA. I pray for the leadership.


    John L. White

  114. 114 John White Sep 25th, 2011 at 8:28 pm

    A comment to the following post:

    Sep 25th, 2011 at 2:57 pm
    Round and round we go! This Guy John White has Brass Balls, for sure. If you were in a room with Him his ass would be in all 4 corners. You got to agree that Polaris Industry’s certainally didn’t buy much. What the hell is Indian Motorcycles? They must be good for 20 Bikes a Year. Talk about throwing good money after Bad!


    I do not have Brass Balls but we do provide Crazy Horse engines to Brass Balls Bobbers!

    John L. White

  115. 115 Patrick Sep 25th, 2011 at 8:44 pm

    John White. I think that most peole like me have stopped reading your comments. It is evident to me that you are an egomaniac, looking for publicity by all means including Cyril’s website. I think you are a nobody looking for attention and you stories are full of BS. Are you having some psychological issues?

  116. 116 John White Sep 25th, 2011 at 8:56 pm


    If I was having some psychological issues I would not be able to “name it”. So rather than claim my stories are BS why don’t you name the BS rather than go into conflict? It may be you that has the psychological issues.

  117. 117 Patrick Sep 25th, 2011 at 9:07 pm

    Your engines? You give them away to starving builders because they would never buy one? Right? What a businessman

  118. 118 Commander Sep 25th, 2011 at 9:22 pm

    It’s interesting to read through the variety of comments that have been posted. Most seem to be from armchair lawyers that prefer to shoot from the hip rather than do a little research and add to the conversation. This could have been a great discussion on the state of these great, but relatively niche bikes. However, the conversation has degenerated into first-grade name calling. By the way – those that actually know John White also know that this is a man that has built multiple businesses from scratch and is ready to stand up for his position and fight. Must be the Marine in him. They also know that he does not take this issue (patent infringement) lightly as many of his competitors continually try and copy his patented designs. Additionally, though he is a successful businessman he is still a person and the types of personal attacks I’ve seen in some of these posts do hurt. In the end, the lawyers and possibly court will decide upon this case. In the meantime how about less grade school playground antics and more grown up discussion about the actual topic. By the way I do know John White and would not bet against him.

    Brett Hinson

  119. 119 Commander Sep 25th, 2011 at 9:26 pm

    Sep 25th, 2011 at 8:44 pm
    John White. I think that most peole like me have stopped reading your comments. It is evident to me that you are an egomaniac, looking for publicity by all means including Cyril’s website. I think you are a nobody looking for attention and you stories are full of BS. Are you having some psychological issues?

    Again, someone who does not know JW.

    What about the logo or have you forgotten that was what this discussion is actually about?

  120. 120 kc cheef Sep 25th, 2011 at 9:37 pm

    Diplomacy is cool.
    But the ”host of the Branson event” got what he had coming.
    The ”host” allowed his chosen special few guests verbally attack you and stood by and watched then made up his own special version of the drama.

    As for the IIRA?
    Yep–good folks and bad folks same as any group.
    LEADERSHIP is definitely lacking over there but Last Resort does seem to have his share of followers willing to give up their own opinions to be popular.

    Hey Patrick.
    You are beginning to wind up a little.
    As my 2 year old Grand daughter says–”calm–calm–find your happy place”
    Good advice.

    And? Where did you head off to big al?
    I want some of your money.
    Make a Wish could always use another donation.
    You going to yak and disappear?
    Or you going to put up some bucks for charity?

  121. 121 CA Indian Rider Sep 25th, 2011 at 11:02 pm

    True leaders don’t try to disrupt unity. Panzy Boy over there is only the king of his domain. His Domain Name. Outside of that, he’s just a little Panzy trying to send out his minions in figuring out who’s calling him out on his B.S. He shows no leadership skills or abilities. If he were a true leader, he’d be out trying to make sure all Indian riders support INDIAN, and anyone who’s trying to support it’s growth. That means you too, Polaris, whatever dealers he dislikes, and any other people that have tried to help keep it going. I have friends who are IIRA memebers, and/or NON IIRA members who are still on that site. No one gives a crap about him, except a select few. You shouldn’t either.

    Mikey is more of a communist. It’s his permission or NO permission? It’s his rules or no rules?
    Screw that. The last thing he needs to hear from you is an apology. The first thing HE needs to GIVE is an apology to members who have defected from him for his control freak ways. His BMX days are over. He’s not the star he thinks he used to be. Screw him and get on with business.

    Maybe when he’s man enough to “OWN” his Sh*t, then I’ll Clue him in. For now, Lets just let his minions do the investigating, because you KNOW he’s reading this. He’s just a Panzy John, don’t let the little man with Big little man syndrome intimidate you.

    Keep your head up with Polaris. Instead of fighting, show them why you do the bikes more good than harm. KM tried this with Kiwi, but instead saw the value of him and backed off.

    Show them why a third party help for the older bikes is good since Polaris won’t have anything to do with fixing any of the 99-04 models.

  122. 122 John White Sep 26th, 2011 at 12:03 am


    Brass Balls, Dave Perewitz, Ron Finch, Kris Krome, Paul Jr. they all paid, some in cash and some in other ways. I can name a few more but it will not convince you. We sell engines everyday. I have no beef with you. I started APE in my garage. Google it. If you have some business advice then name it. Crazy Horse was a start up with no name. These folks and others have helped CH become known worldwide. This is why Polaris thinks its important to put us on notice. They have a right to protect their IP. Someone convinced them to send us a scud without doing some simple data collection. They made a decision without putting a team together to get some facts.

    Yes we give engines away to those wishing to generate money in the name of charity. Our return is exposure. Paul Jr pays for the extras……………polishing, chrome, powder coating and he also buys engines from us for low cost to use off the show. In return we get exposure in 130 countries worldwide. Yes, we are getting exposure here on the Cyril Huze Blog but it goes both ways. You can see the comments coming in and there are more to come. I am humble enough to listen to any business advice you got……………..name it. But if you are questioning my abilities as a business man then you do not know much about me.

    Again, I have no beef with you. Polaris should realize the only beef I have with them is the two page letter. If I was not running American Piledriving Equipment Inc. I would do everything I could to work for them a promote Indian. Now rather than get into conflict with me please realize I am naming it for you and wish no conflict.

  123. 123 Brett Ray Sep 26th, 2011 at 1:10 am

    Sorry, this has turned into a rather long comment not what I originally intended. Oh well.

    I was sitting here looking around the internet and heard about a motorcycle company suing somebody. For personal reasons this subject really interests me. Searching around on the internet to find out more about it, eventually lead me here.

    I’ve been reading all the posts and will say, I agree with some, some I don’t. I feel I may be a bit more qualified on this subject that most, but more on that later.
    One thing I do know is this. If you are one of the few rare individuals that dare to be unique, think out of the box and become successful, then look out. There are people out there just waiting to attack for what ever reason. I guess in some way, seeing someone else do what they love, somehow makes their own pitiful life seem worse than it already is. When they see someone else go out on a limb, or take a chance on something without caring about the consequences that may come form it, they are jealous. They would rather see whoever just fail, so they can feel better about having never even tried. Even though they secretly would love to try and start a new motorcycle company or whatever from scratch. They know they would never have the balls to even try. You know who you are, and after everyone sees the response to this post we will know as well. I believe that is the main reason behind most of the negative comments.
    I’ve been in that situation many times. Where people say that won’t work, or you can’t do that, or you’re stupid for even trying. But I just keep at it until I make it happen. Then when I succeed, I have to listen to people try to pick it or me apart. They try to tell me how I did this or that wrong how that should have been done etc. Telling how they could have done it better, after telling me at first it couldn’t even be done. I don’t listen to the nay sayers they are small people trying to feel big.

    I have been involved in the motorcycle industry in one way or another, my whole life. I have done everything from professional racing, to working for manufactures to help them produce better products, to starting my own motorcycle parts manufacturing business. The motorcycle industry as a whole is just too small for anyone to try to cut down anyone trying to make it better. Whether you agree or not with how they are going about whatever it is they’re doing, or if you just don’t like the product. That’s fine say what you think but be respectful and make sure you have your facts straight. Then go and say something good about a company or product you do like. People are quick to post a negative comment about someone or a product but slow to post something good about something they are happy with. Just because you don’t agree with someone about a product doesn’t make them wrong. I have friends that ride Harleys. (Am I allowed to use that word or am I going to get sued?) Anyway they love their bikes, me not so much. When they tell me how great they are and how “fast” they are I just shake my head and agree. I’d bet I have more reason than most to have a bad taste in my mouth about that company.

    I have met John White, and from what conversations we have had and the time I was around him I believe he is a good guy. We talked about some different things as well as some goals he has for Crazy Horse in the future. I know eventually he wants to make a great AMERICAN made motorcycle. In the end is that really a bad thing? I’ll tell you, I was willing to take a bit of a chance on him and hopefully my little part will help his company grow. I would love to see him succeed and would like to work with him more in the future as well. Not try to defeat him for lack of anything better to do. That also goes for anyone else trying to build a new motorcycle company. If you need anything, feel free to give me a call. If I can’t help, chances are I know someone that can.

    Now to the subject at hand. So what if it turns out to be too close and he loses. So what if he wins. Understand, I like John but I really don’t care about the out come of this lawsuit. I would bet it won’t affect me at all. So I don’t really understand where some of the passion is coming from. How is the out come going to affect any of you? Will it make you sleep better knowing the little guy won, or that he got what he deserved? In truth it will only affect John and, or Polaris. To be honest I’m sure it really won’t affect either of them very much either, which ever way it turns out. But isn’t it really just up to either the two companies involved or the courts, if it comes to that? In the end they will both just go on with what they are doing. He may be doing business with a different logo, maybe not. I know, I’ve been through it.

    Someone once told me they had the opportunity to but the “Indian” brand and trade mark. They asked me what I thought about the deal. I said I wouldn’t waist my time or money on it. Unless it was very, very cheap, even then I don’t know that I would. He probably thought I was crazy. But then, he had either enough respect for my opinion or wanted to hear the crazy man babble, so he asked why. I said because it used to be a great name and mean something. It has its place in history for sure. But it has become too watered down and “cheap”. I said, it has changed hands to many times, all failures. The companies that have tried to resurrect it have failed. They made bad products and went out of business. So the name has come and gone so many times that in my opinion, it now has no real value. It’s like that old Uncle you used to admire and have respect for. Then you found out he’s just a bum and only came around when he needed cash. They all tried to make statements like Americas oldest motorcycle company. Now a Canadian company owns it? Give me a break. That would be like me starting a new company making tractors, getting the name of some company that started in the 1800’s. Even though they went out of business in the 30’s and then say we’ve been building tractors over a 100 years.
    John is not the bad guy here, but then neither is Polaris. They simply have a issue they need to work out. They will one way or another. Big deal.

    I’m sure no one really cares one way or another, what I think. Because like they say, options are like butt holes, everyone has one and they all stink. But I feel better.
    Brett Ray
    (Once sued by HARLEY-DAVIDSON)

  124. 124 Vintage Sep 26th, 2011 at 9:53 am

    So Mikey wrote that letter to inflame his own people , funny , Im sure they thought it was me or Ed , in fact it was Mikey ,so all you iira lovers ask Mikey to refute it and to show and prove it wasnt him , I will bet a thousand bucks he cant because I know where it came from as well!

  125. 125 chfyellowhorse Sep 26th, 2011 at 11:03 am

    Well, this is quite the long diatribe!

    For what it is worth, I have been a test rider for Crazy Horse motorcycles for about 6 years now. Way back when the S&S motor in my 2000 Chief let go and I did not have the means to get another motor, John took the opportunity to put some serious miles on the CH motor. I commute with my bike from Murrieta to San Diego, CA every day. It used to be 120 miles per day, now it is down to 90 miles per day (new job closer to home…) and I have put 80k miles on the current CH motor in my bike. I will not say that there were 0 issues, the first engine we installed used leftover cases, jugs and heads. It lasted about 3k before there were problems (can’t remember what they were at the moment…) but the current incarnation consists of brand new (at the time of build) castings for the cases that were designed to fix the original Gilroy problems.

    As for Mr. White personally, like any successful business owner, he is a little eccentric. He does thing on occassion that make people wonder if he has lost his mind. He does things at other times that make people wonder if he is just trying to curry favor. I can tell you from my own experience that he is a genuinely good guy. Take it or leave it. As for the current lawsuit, I am pretty sure CH will win but even if they don’t I do not believe it will be a big deal.

    Carry on John, you guys are doing some great work to get some good old fashioned American Iron rolling down the road. Thanks for everything!

  126. 126 AZ 03 Vintage Chief Owner Sep 26th, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    I own a 03 Gilroy Vintage Indian Chief. I think that I must be one of the lucky ones in that I got about 60,000 miles on it before I had to look at rebuilding / replacing it. Many of those miles were cross country motorcycle trips.

    To date I have had to replace almost everything on the bike except of the frame, fenders, kickstand, and paint. But it is a “pretty” bike and I do love my Indian, even if it is a sad example of American engineering and manufacturing. But, that seems to be the way of things in the U.S anymore….going for the quick buck by focusing on appearance and not on durability and reliability, and then avoiding responsibility for fixing the problems.

    I decided to go to Crazy Horse to address the issues associated with my PowerPlus engine. As a result, I have had the opportunity to have many phone conservations with John White. Here is what I know of the man:

    First and foremost, he is a man of his word and he acts with integrity.

    Second, he calls a spade, a spade. Some people might be offended by this, some won’t be. I appreciate it.

    Third, his customer service is SECOND TO NONE. Why? Because he stands behind his product and services.

    Fourth, he takes the time to educate and inform his customers about their engines.

    And, lastly, his passion for the motorcycle industry is clearly evident in any communications you will have with him.

    John White is the type of individual that we need in this industry. Someone that elevates the bar in the industry for quality of workmanship and excellent service. There is no product or service that is perfect and isn’t in need of continuous improvement. The key is standing behind what you do and striving to do what needs to be done… the right thing.

    Competitors have a choice. They can either meet the challenge and elevate the quality of their products and services OR they can sit back and try to bring others down to their level of poor workmanship and poor service through personal attacks and defamation.

    I strongly recommend anyone looking at the possibility of an engine rebuild or replacement to consider Crazy Horse.

    John, good luck on the trademark dispute. I have seen these things drag out for years.

    Harold Thomas

  127. 127 Transam Jack Sep 26th, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    I spent (too) much time reading all these comments. The only support John White receives are from his friends. None of those who are thinking he is wrong, the vast majority, are Polaris employees. Huge difference. I think White is wrong and should be forbidden to use his logo. The guy just seems to love himself very much and spends too much time here trying to promote his little unknown shop.

  128. 128 AZ 03 Vintage Chief Owner Sep 26th, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    It is easy to try to discount what I am saying by just writing it off as a friend supporting a friend. But the fact is my comments were those of a customer describing my personal experience and assessment of Crazy Horse.

    I would like to note one other thing, I have not been restricted by Crazy Horse in any way on who can work on my engine.

  129. 129 Patrick Gale Sep 26th, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    Evidently Crazy Horse tries to ride on the back of Indian and John White is excited because Cyril’s article gives him a little bit of publicity! A bad one by exposing him. Should be put out of business because damaging Indian legendary image. Period. End of the story.

  130. 130 Brandon Sep 26th, 2011 at 1:38 pm

    Piggybacking is your sport Mister John White (Hoka Hey, Indian)

  131. 131 wavemaster Sep 26th, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    are you kidding me?
    a friend told me of this blog and insisted i check it out…i now have one less friend!
    really? do you think your opinions (no matter how well informed you think you are) make a diference? this is not amarican idol…YOUR VOTES DO NOT COUNT!! this will get settled with the lawyers.
    i have known john white for many years. we are not exactly “friends”. we have not seen eye to eye on many occasions and there have been times i wanted to shove a D-62 up his ass. His intentions however were always honorable. if you are talking smack about john then either you do not know him or you tried to wrong him, his family, friends, or employees and got your ass handed to you. john would be an asset on any team.
    if you do not like crazy horse then support something else.
    if you do not like john white then support someone else.
    wanna agree on something…turn off the damn blog, go get on your bike and RIDE. the fresh air will do you good.

  132. 132 Shifter Sep 26th, 2011 at 2:46 pm


    “if you do not like crazy horse then support something else” It’s what we do in this Blog.
    “if you do not like john white then support someone else” It’s what we do in this Blog.

    You wrote to say nothing. Go for a ride wavemaster! LOL.

  133. 133 John White Sep 26th, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    Brandon Piggybacking is your sport Mister John White (Hoka Hey, Indian)

    Brandon, have you been to Pine Ridge? Do you know Jim Red Cloud? I worked with him when everyone was taking shots at him. At one point he wanted me to run the 2nd Hoka Hey. I was excited about it and I am still excited about the Hoka Hey. Jim wanted something bigger than I could deal with……………….a run into Mexico and Canada with a one million prize. Jim is a very brave man that is willing to take risks. I am not as brave or risky as he.

    I invested in Robert Swope’s idea called Guts and Glory. I thought this was more tame so when they asked me for funds I invested. I was only an investor. Robert Swope designed it. Robert’s position was that he worked for Hoka Hey and got fired and wanted to do his own thing. Jim’s position was the Robert made a bunch of promises regarding backing and movie rights that did not come to fruition. Jim warned me but I did not listen.

    Jim believed elements of the Hoka Hey were put into the Guts and Glory Ralley. I listened to Jim’s points and agreed with most of them. He wanted Guts and Glory to hold off on its run until his run was over with and disputes could be worked out. He sent a scud but this time it hit my heart. I decided to listen. I put my shares up for sale.

    Robert Swope wishes to push ahead with Guts and Glory. I do not. I have asked Robert to buy my shares. I support Jim Red Cloud and his Hoka Hey. I wish Robert the best of luck. Hoka Hey is a free for all and that is what makes it so great. Guts and Glory was a timed event and I am sure Robert will try to muster enough support but I will not be supporting his event. In retrospect my wife and I regret investing in the thing. That does not mean it will not succeed.

    I am human. I make mistakes. This was one of them. Jim and I have fought like warriors and we no longer wish to fight. We are friends. I am very glad to have my friendship with Jim Red Cloud. He took a lot of hits over the Hoka Hey…………but Harley supported him this year and if he needs financial support I will be glad to donate.

  134. 134 Keith R. Ball Sep 26th, 2011 at 6:43 pm

    I haven’t followed this thread, but I was aware of it, so I reached out to John White. John and long time Indian enthusiasts have been attacked by more than one entity claiming they bought the Indian name, so suddenly they are going to take it away from builders, and rebuilders who have been in the business for decades.

    I have worked with John and the Crazy Horse name for years, and I built a motorcycle using his highly improved engine package. I also offered to cover the entire story on Bikernet once the dust settles. Hopefully the two parties can come to a progressive, positive agreement.

    We are living through very tough economic times. I think I would be a better approach for the industry, if we could all work together to grow motorcycle business, not pick it apart.

    Ride Forever,


  135. 135 B. Kelley Sep 26th, 2011 at 7:04 pm

    1- Engine is not the topic of Cyril’s article, nor Polaris is talking about the engine. The topic is plagiarism of Indian logo by Crazy Horse.

    2- I would like Keith Ball to tell us if he paid his JW engine because it seems that nobody pays it, only trade against something like publicity, articles, etc. It looks like Crazy Horse is unable to sell it. Why?

    3- It’s John White with his friends who started talking about this engine. They are using this thread to try to promote it. It’s not an Indian brand engine and John White doesn’t sell Indians. So why use a copy of the Indian logo? The logo is only the subject of the scud sent by Polaris.

    K. Ball. Are you saying that under the pretext of new business in tough economic times everybody and his brother should be free to copy the big motorcycle manufacturer logos? Good ethic.

  136. 136 Jay Curtis Sep 26th, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    That’s enough comments. Lawyers will argue. Judge will decide. And in all cases John White will be poorer.

  137. 137 CA Indian Rider Sep 26th, 2011 at 8:15 pm

    Still waiting for Panzy boy to respond on here instead of him making all these phone calls behind the scenes. LOL!!!

  138. 138 John White Sep 26th, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    Sales of Engines

    I do not know where this story comes from that we do not sell engines. We sell engines everyday of the week. That being said, the world is full of business where selling is more than a cash sale. Take the example of the bowling shirts. What company gave bowling shirts to HBO’s “The Soprano’s and to Fox Networks “Two and a Half Men? Free shirts in return for exposure! The motorcycle world is full of examples like this. Ask George Smith how many S&S engines he has provided for free? Those saying that somehow we are weak because we give engines away need to consider these factors.

    When I started APE, currently the largest pile equipment company in the world, I rented machines for free in return for exposure. Sure, I could do what others do and sell out to Venture Capitalists at 60% and launch a product. Or I could get Thor to lend me 30 Million and market a bike under the “prestigious brand model” out of the handbooks of the Harvard Business School.

    Indian was the only bike with a Native Indian Theme. There is room for one more. Crazy Horse. We paid a pretty penny to have Zambini Brothers (Google them) to design our logo with a theme around one of the most famous Native Americans that ever lived. Take a closer look at the logo. Do you see the read hawk tail feather? Do you know what this represents? Do you see the eight sided star? Do you know what this represents? Do you see the turquoise jewelry hanging from his ear? Do you know what this represents? I hope it is studied because the more you understand it the more you will realize that Crazy Horse is more American than anyone…….that is part of our marketing plan.

    We need a bike that is built in America. We need every part on it to be made in America. Everything down to every last nut and bolt. Tires, wheels, frame, carb, engine, transmission, cables, seat, everything. That is what we are doing. It can be done for the 38K I paid for my 2009 Indian that was assembled with cheap parts and marketed as better than any Harley.
    This perhaps is what Polaris is afraid of. Why else would they take a shot at a no account company like Crazy Horse. Yea, the small little company that cannot sell an engine and has to give away everything and come on the Cyril Huze Blog to get attention.
    There is a reason why they sent the scud. If we were a joke then no letter would have been sent. It is not about copying a logo. It is about using a trademark as a weapon to protect an entry barrier.
    We have our marketing plan in place. Build a complete and total American made bike with a frame that fits folks that are 6-feet or taller men. Super high quality is number one, just like our pile drivers. We want a Native Indian Theme with a powerful name. That is our STP………..that is our Segment, our target, and our positioning.
    Since Big Dog and other motorcycle manufacturers did not build their own engine they did not have the manufacturing profit in one of the largest parts of the motorcycle. We know this weakness. We understand that you cannot build wealth without a manufacturing profit. So we started with an engine. We spend hundreds of thousands of dollars fixing a good engine that was dead on the floor and rejected by Indian. Sam Wills designed our frames and jigs. Google him.
    An All-American made bike is coming and Polaris wants to stop it. That is not going to happen. We have deep pockets too and we have the hidden strength of Crazy Horse. Yes, an all-American made high quality bike can be built in the USA by Americans. Yes, it has a multi-link rear suspension that is right out of the BMW handbook. No wonder Polaris is sending scuds.

  139. 139 roscoe Sep 26th, 2011 at 9:11 pm

    Polaris/Victory bikes are American made. You might want to do a little research before you make yourself look like an ass.
    Oops, too late.

  140. 140 Presley Sep 26th, 2011 at 9:14 pm

    John White. I think you mispoke, I think. Do you sell engines every day. You sold more than 365? Can you prove it? Or is it more like every day you try to sell an engine? Made by someody else? TP Engineering? How many did he do for you? TP still working for you?

  141. 141 John White Sep 26th, 2011 at 10:24 pm


    Yes, TP does all the machine work on the cases, cylinders, and heads. If you wish to know more about what we do then our door is open, come visit our facility. Our plan is to buy all the manufacturing tools from TP as part of a “know-how” agreement. In addition, we are moving towards investing in TP as well.

    With regards to copying I am sure the history buffs can sort out who invented the 45 degree V-Twin engine. It was not Indian, they were 42 degrees. So what is to be said about the 45 degree V-Twin that Gilroy, KM and now Polaris are using? I think they should use their 50 degree overhead cam engine redressed with round cylinders and heads……….it is light years ahead of the tractor engine we both are using.

    Indian had Thunderheart reverse engineer an Evo 80. That is why they made a mistake and launched with the wrong combustion chamber area.. Someone forget to erase the Evo 80’s 80 ccs. It was suppose to be 90. That is why the PowerPlus was a starter killer…….too much compression. If you read in the Gilroy manual and do a little math you will see the compression ratio mistakes. The flywheel assembly is Evo, the whole engine is Evo. S&S components drop right in…………………and it is S&S components that are inside the KM engine.

    Oh, and since when did Indian have left side drive? And what is to be said about KM’s Japanese turn signals? I am not the one jumping up and down about this. I view this as reverse engineering and they have a right to do so. How about the primary layout? How about the transmission.? Is that Indian? Let the history buffs sort this out but it is not something invented by Indian. The entire bike is a Harley with Indian fenders…………..except the rear mono shock and the eight inches of extra wheel base.

    Here is another bit of info. Have you looked at the financials of Polaris? Download them. Check out their Beta. Do some math. Do you know their weighted cost of capital? Can you find the similarities between the 1953 Indian and Polaris? They both banked on the military. Harley was shut out of the Korean War so they concentrated on the civilian market………..a place where innovation thrives. Indian banked on the Korean War and Harley banked on the rest. The war ended in a flash and so did Indian. Do you see what cut backs are happening right now? Polaris has never made a dime on motorcycles. Their free cash flow is on big contracts with the military. De Ja Vu.

    Indian, back in the day was an innovative company. First with electric start and many other features. Innovation was once the heart of Indian. Racing and inventing and racing some more.

    The Kiwi’s and the Sarklights and the UK firm run by Alan Forbes have been the true carriers of the Indian mark. Perhaps Polaris will aquire these fine companies and work to join the old era with the new one.

    Yea, we sell engines everyday but no we have not delivered one per day. If you look at our histogram you can see it is not declining even in this difficult climate. Crazy Horse is also a full machine shop, cutting parts for our pile drivers, machining small parts for Boeing and for many other companies. We have a good manufacturing base. As you know, Obama gave us manufacturers a full 100% tax credit for the next two years. Thank you.

  142. 142 John White Sep 26th, 2011 at 10:27 pm

    Made in American,

    Did you not listen to Polaris’s recent conference call? They reported on the status of parts cominig form Japan and the troubles caused by the earth quake. They are assembled in America.

  143. 143 Presley Sep 27th, 2011 at 7:22 am

    John White. I didn’t ask you to blah, blah, blah. Your forte to avoid answering precise questions embarassing you. You said that you sell engines every day. so, answer my questions.

    You sold more than 365 during the last 365 days? Can you prove it? Or is it more like every day you try to sell an engine? How many did TP Eng. made for you? TP still working for you?

    (I remind everybody that J. White wrote in this Blog that he owned the 2011 Hoka Hey and that he was partner with Jim Durham in a new company called Hoka Hey Motorcycles. Both statements were false).

    So, answer my questions. Let’s see are truthful you are.

  144. 144 Vintage Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:22 am

    Hey Roscoe , like John said “ASSEMBLED IN THE UNITED STATES” , Honda assembles there bikes in the US as well, you might do yourself good to utilize the internet and do a little research yourself first before appearing nationally looking like a boob , oops you already did that!

  145. 145 John White Sep 27th, 2011 at 11:21 am


    I answered both your questions. Please re-read my response and you will see that I answered them. Jim and I, at one point were going to form a company called Hoka Hey Motorcycles. Then he and I got sideways. This delayed and changed things. This happens in business.

    Indian said they were going to launch a bike in 2005, then 2006, then 2007, then 2008, and we did not see one until 2009. They said they were in it for the “long term”. The dealers banked on this. So there are plenty of examples of statements that do not happen the way they are orignially announced.

    Don’t count out a future bike company called Hoka Hey Motorcycles. Legal documents were drawn up and that dream is still possible. Claiming I made false claims is not understanding what the process was or is. I understand you are an outsider and so the question if fair. Asked and answered. Hoka Hey Motorcycles would be a fantastic name for a motorcycle company and Red Cloud rooted. Since this post is more about Polaris and trademarks lets stay on topic. You can email me at johnw@apevibro.com or you can call me directly at 206 498-9400 and I would be happy to discuss these topics and answer your questions in more detail.

    I said I would someday drive the largest pile in the world and it took me 23 years to make that happen. That pile is 72-feet in diameter and being driven for the world’s largest bridge. Some dreams take time. That does not mean they are false claims. Polaris is making claims right now. Let’s see if you hold them to the same standard you wish to hold me.


  146. 146 Presley Sep 27th, 2011 at 11:40 am

    More blah, blah, blah from John White (with incorrect statements about KM because they never said they would launch in 2005, 2006, 2007. Ask Cyril.) You also wrote in this Blog and many other websites that you owned Hoka Hey 2011, that you were partner with Jim Durham in Hoka Hey Motorcycles. It was 2 false statements and you know it.

    But you still refuse to answer my questions. One more time, answer:

    You wrote above in a forner comment that you sell engines every day!

    You sold more than 365 during the last 365 days? Can you prove it? Or is it more like every day you try to sell an engine but you sell none? How many did TP Eng. made for you? TP still working for you?

    One more refusal to answer and more people will know that your written statements are often false. Don’t forget that all what you wrote never disappeared.

  147. 147 Gary Sep 27th, 2011 at 11:45 am

    Let’s ask Tom Pirone at TP Engineering…

  148. 148 kc cheef Sep 27th, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    Hi Brett;
    You seem to focus on Johns comment that CH sells engines everyday.
    Seems a weak argument to me.
    I read it as a casual statement to mean CH is constantly in the market to sell everyday–not that they actually DO sell one everyday.
    Your argument is beginning to look a little silly (to me–and yes I’m taking sides).

    I would like to ask YOU now about a statement you made in a previous post.
    Quoted below.

    ”They don’t even try to hide the fact they have stolen the Powerplus 100, made their “fixes” & Renamed it the VPlus”

    Read to the letter you are accusing John (and Crazy Horse)of being a thief.
    Where are your facts to back this up?
    ”STOLEN” seems to be a very strong accusation with out proof or facts.
    Are you actually acusing John of theft?
    Or is it a kind of common term folks use flippantly everyday to make a point?

    Next question?
    If you can use a generality can John?

    On with the show.
    This thread is interesting, and will become more so as we watch the main act unfold.
    You all reading this are being given a gift of actually watching litigation unfold.
    Pretty damn cool.

  149. 149 Airwolf Sep 27th, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    My engine has been in CH’s R&D program since the beginning and JW has gone way above and beyond to keep my engine running and my bike on the road. I am an IIRA member and a Patriot Guard Rider who puts a lot of miles on, just turning 63k on my ’03 Roadmaster. While it’s true that JW is quite a controversial individual he did help the IIRA get their domain name back and has assisted many an Indian rider in his day. I wish Crazy Horse much luck in all their endeavors and will watch with interest to see where this whole thing goes.
    The CH logo is not an Indian logo…it was designed with much historical significance in mind and took a lot of work and money to produce and I’m JW will do what is necessary to protect it.

  150. 150 John White Sep 27th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    Presley, as i said, I wish no conlfict with you. Read this and then perhaps you will retract some of your claims.

    RALEIGH, N.C. — Indian Motorcycle Company, once a fierce competitor with Harley Davidson, is coming back into business, and its new home will be in North Carolina.

    Indian Motorcycle and Chris-Craft Corporation, a boat manufacturing firm that dates to 1874, said Thursday they will build new manufacturing facilities in Kings Mountain, N.C. Governor Mike Easley announced the new plants.

    Both firms are owned by privately held Stellican, Ltd., an investment firm in London. Stellican bought Chris-Craft out of bankruptcy in 2001.

    The original Indian Motorcycle went out of business in 1954. The new company said it would invest $23 million to open a motorcycle production facility. The assets of the firm had been purchased by the London group. Indian Motorcycle will occupy a plant once operated by International Paper. It plans to hire 167 people.

    “Our primary goal is to return Indian Motorcycle Company to its rightful position as a premium motorcycle brand, selling beautifully designed, high quality products and delivering world-class service,” said David Wright, Indian Motorcycle Company’s president. “North Carolina offers us the skilled workforce and business-friendly atmosphere to make that happen.”

    An Indian brand motorcycle was featured in the 2005 feature film “The World’s Fastest Indian” starring Anthony Hopkins. Hopkins played the role of a New Zealander who set speed records in the 1960s on a restored 1920 Indian motorcycle.

    Average wages at the company are expected to be $47,000 a year plus benefits.

    Indian Motorcycle brand production models are considered collector’s items. Manufacturing dates back to 1902.

    The company plans to introduce the “Indian Chief” motorcycle in the second half of 2007. The firm said it would begin putting together a “network” of dealerships starting early next year.

    “We will apply the same practical and long-term approach to Indian as we have employed successfully at Chris-Craft,” said Stephen Julius, chairman of both Indian Motorcycle and Chris-Craft. “We are confident we will repeat our success with Indian by remaining true to the rich heritage of this incredible brand and doing things slowly and thoroughly. We are certain that there is an important role for Indian in the future of the American motorcycle market.

    The relocation of the firms from Sarasota, FL. is expected to create 807 new jobs over the next five years, Easley said.

    Chris-Craft said it would move its yacht division to a former Daimler-Chrysler facility in Kings Mountain. The company plans to hire 640 people and to invest $19 million in its new plant.

    Both companies will receive One North Carolina Fund and Job Development Investment Grants as well as local government incentives.

    Under a 10-year agreement, Chris-Craft and Indian Motorcycle could receive as much as $7.56 million in grants equal to 65 percent of state personal income withholding taxes generated by the creation of new jobs.

    “By choosing North Carolina, these companies offer proof that we have the skilled, knowledge-based workforce needed to support the growth and success of the boat and vehicle manufacturers in our state,” Easley said in a statement.

    Average wages at Chris-Craft are expected to be $32,000 a year plus benefits. Average wages in Cleveland County are $28,700 plus benefits.

    “This state has a workforce with the skills we need to build boats,” said Stephen Heese, Chris-Craft’s president. “Former furniture makers and woodworkers are ideal employees for us.”

    Chris-Craft operations resumed in 2001.

    Other partners participating in the recruiting of the companies included the N.C. Community College System, Cleveland County, City of Kings Mountain, and Duke Energy.

    RELATED TOPICS: Cleveland County

  151. 151 streetglide530 Sep 27th, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    I think that John forgot more than most of us will ever know about trademark infringment. If you go to the Ape website you will see how many patents that he has on his piledriving equipment. Ape has had several companies try to copy John’s idea’s only to face the consequences of infringement. I also think that with his knowledge of this subject that there are a lot of people jumping the gun with the accusations of infringement. I am sure that he has done his homework and will prevail in this matter. I have worked in the piledriving industry for thirty years and can honestly say that there is no one that is more respected in the industry than John White. (Unless you listen to his competitors) It looks like half the people in this blog are his competitors. If John ends up achieving just half of in the motorcycle industry that he did so far in the piledriving industry then hang on to your asses and enjoy the ride! I currently own a Harley but my next bike will be a Crazy Horse!

  152. 152 John White Sep 27th, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    Presley, I wrote this in my response to you a few posts back:

    Yea, we sell engines everyday but no we have not delivered one per day.

    After reading the claims that came out of Indian you can see that not all “dreams” come true. At least I did not take funds from a government agency. What do you think the citizens have to say about the sudden departure of Indian Motorcycles? So Presley, I am not here to pepper you with false claims that you have made about me. I did not duck your questions. I answered them.


  153. 153 "Jaw Bolt" Sep 27th, 2011 at 2:58 pm

    Any one who wants to “bash” John White or degrade him does not know him. The motorcycle industry is blessed to have a person like John………………………any industry would be. John is a stickler to see that a consumer gets a good reliable product. How do you think “Crazy Horse” was started ? By John buying one of Indian’s lemmons………………..and Indian trying to snowball the public, I guess snowball touches the matter lightly. Anytime a big company closes the doors with money in the bank and turns their back on their customers is a sad day in any business. There are still alot of people out there that think they just went bankrupt………………..alot of us know diffrent.

    John White started out years ago in 1974 when he got out of the US Marine Corp and started in the foundation equipment business as a field mechanic. He worked hard long hours in that business, often on his own time to learn all he could about anything pertaining to that business. Over the years he landed with the largest manufacturer of foundation equipment in the business at the time.

    Being the expert he had become he was always on the owners to build a better product for the customer, something they didn’t want to hear.

    Out of frustration John ventured out and built what he had always known was the best vibro pile hammer a manufacture could offer. That was the start of “American Pile Driving Equipment” or APE now the largest manufacture of foundation equipment in the world..

    John demands that APE builds and delivers the best in the indusry, always looking for better ideas, protecting them with patents. John demands the same frm the people that work for him & APE.

    This is the same ground work and ideas that Crazy horse runs on. John is a person who demands no dissatisfyed customers……………….no matter what it takes. Once again I think the motor cycle industry is very luck to have a person like John……………………for those of you who think diffrent you really need to know the real John White, not jumping on the band wagon with a bunch of misled bloggers.

  154. 154 Steve J Sep 27th, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    Riot.. Just goes to show you. If you don’t know jack shit about a subject, you can always just start talking shit about the man.. Hell it works in politics..

    Back to the original topic.. The Polaris letter is a brush back pitch. It’s designed to frighten and intimidate..

    For Crazy Horse, this isn’t the first time this has seen daylight. Kings Mtn tossed a similar pitch a few years ago. It went nowhere. That previous Kings Mtn action actually makes Polaris’s job of making this recent complaint stick much more difficult. However, as both parties have substantial funding, I’m sure the process will continue, and ultimately the lawyers and arbitrators will sort it all out and bill out accordingly.

    Crazy Horse aside, there are other entities out there that are indeed at risk. And unfortunately Polaris has the duty to police its trademark, or risk losing it.

    For some smaller vendors, a letter like this one will be enough. Ironic thing is, some of the very vendors that have kept the name alive, (or even worth owning for that matter), are the ones that will be impacted the most. Either they will be forced into a licensing agreement, (If Polaris chooses to allow it), or close the doors.

    I wish Polaris the best. But in this case I think they are trying to drive a thumbtack with a sledgehammer. Muscling people with attorneys and going after the little guy makes them look more and more like the company they seek to replace.

  155. 155 Henry Sep 27th, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    Hey. John White should stop asking all his friends in the pile driving business to comment positively about him. It’s getting quite funny. Nobody here care about the pile driving business! Wrong website. What is a Crazy Horse motorcycle? Can we see one? I can’t wait. Or is it just a model in his imagination. Just again another way to talk? LOL.

  156. 156 kc cheef Sep 27th, 2011 at 5:09 pm

    Hi Henry.
    Why wouldn’t Johns friends in the piledriving business be allowed to make posts supporting him?
    Looks to me like most of the posts from his friends support his character.
    Looks like most of his friends speak from direct experience.
    Do you know John personally?
    Have you experienced the Crazy Horse approach to customers and support?
    Or are you just yakking?
    I recognize some of the posters, and I’m noticing that most of them do ride.
    As for the Crazy Horse motorcycle?
    If you can’t wait to see one why not ride up to Kent and take a look at the early prototype?
    It’s there–I’ve ridden it around 6,000 miles so far.
    Yes–it does carry a lot of Gilroy Indian on it right now–but it also carries some pretty nice innovation also.
    Personally I like the hell out of it and plan to purchase one of the first after it becomes available.
    LOT of work to do on it yet and a lot of changes to be made.
    Henry–can you explain exactly WHAT your problem is with John and Crazy Horse?
    Are you forming your own opinion from experience?
    Or are you sheepling along?

    Where did big al get off to?
    I still want to send some of his money off to Make a Wish.
    Hey big (ahem) al–you gonna make good on your offer to bet?

  157. 157 kc cheef Sep 27th, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    Nice post on the Kings Mountain fiasco John.
    Is there anyhting the people of Kings Mountain can do to recover some of the loss?
    Seems a pretty shabby way of doing business.
    Indian packed up and hauled ass out of their.
    How is the boat division doing?
    Last i heard it was almost gone also.
    Seems like a lot was given–and a lot was taken– and some promises were broken.

    Hate to see anyone lose their job in todays world.
    I’d hate worse to think they were given jobs with no solid foundation in place to keep those jobs.

  158. 158 Knucklehead Sep 27th, 2011 at 5:29 pm

    1953 Indian went bankrupt. Now does this mean they will have to jack hammer the monument also.

  159. 159 Benner Sep 27th, 2011 at 6:37 pm

    Wow, just wasted some time in my life I’ll never get back reading all this, 160+ posts and less than a handful actually deal with the topic.

    By John’s own admission, he sometimes doesn’t know when to to shut up.
    He has a passion for motorcycles and all things motorcycle, sometimes the passion takes over and the previous sentence is the result. I’ve personally told him that before.

    I have never seen or heard of John intentionally trying to hurt anyone. If one ever chooses to spend a little time listening and talking to him they will find he is a good man with a good heart.
    With that said, my opinions are really as worthless as the rest in this blog, but it’s how i feel.

    Crazy Horse is a mom and pop start up. Nothing more nothing less. They are trying to grow and do the right thing by helping others. There just happens to be a target on their back for whatever reason.

    Nothing we say or do on this blog has anything to do with the fact there is question being raised between Polaris and Crazy Horse. It’s not our fight nor our business (personal or professional).

    I am a nobody, nothing more than a biker that is happy to be running a V-Plus mill in my scooter.

  160. 160 Scooter45 Sep 27th, 2011 at 7:18 pm

    My conclusion is that White is suffering a lot from being an unknown and Is finding pleasure in getting his 1 minute of fame by having Polaris targeting him for plagiarism. Pathetic.

  161. 161 Airwolf Sep 27th, 2011 at 7:53 pm

    What is pathetic about marketing or viral marketing? John is certainly not an unknown in either the pile driving business or the MC world. Quite the opposite in fact.

    This is one of the premiere MC blogs in the world…good for him! He certainly doesn’t need 1 minute of fame here though…seems like most have already made up their mind one way or the other anyhow.

    I can’t wait to see how this plays out… I’m a big fan of Indian and Crazy Horse both.

  162. 162 kc cheef Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    You still out there?
    I’m awaiting my education on the fork lug issue as well as the EFI problems.

    That forklug just really intrigues me.
    It just amazes me that a problem that significant is kind of like ignored by KM and Polaris.
    I REALLY wonder if Polaris was informed?
    That FI problem has left a lot of folks shaking their heads also.

    Hey ppscoutrider rumor I’m hearing is you have your KM up for sale.
    Any truth to that?
    Or is someone pulling my leg?

  163. 163 Brett Ray Sep 28th, 2011 at 12:42 am

    Sorry I did it again. “Long” I start out for a quick point and the next thing you know.

    Wow! Some of you act about like a 3 year old, and make about as much sense when it comes to an intelligent conversation.
    I can tell you this, after reading some of the comments on here I am ready to donate design, machining and build time. Just to get a bike built, get it on the road and into production just to shut you whiners up. That or just … never mind.

    Anyway, more to the point. I love the way some of you just automatically side with Polaris because they sent out a letter. A letter by the way, with the facts as they see them.
    I have been through this with Harley. A bunch of people of course jumped right on the H-D band wagon. What a piece of crap I was stealing from Harley. Most of the ones talking had no idea what the law suit was really even about. But they never knew what went on behind the scenes.
    Let me give you a little insight.
    One day I wanted to do something different. So I built an airplane and put a Harley engine on it. I designed and built a prop drive that would bolt on the engine and went flying. I of course had to listen to all the people say things like, it can’t be done. You don’t know what you’re doing. I will never fly, etc, etc. I just smiled and kept working.

    I started flying it around and now people seemed to love it. Those people even included some Harley executives. Yep, I had flown it to the Oshkosh air show where they just happened to see it. They wanted to talk, and we did. There were talks about Harley shop appearances and things like that. I mean what could have been a better way to promote your new engine? Then the tone of the talk seemed to start to change. The engine and drive started to get a lot more attention. It was featured in some magazines and TV shows. So I started selling engine packages to others, and the business really started to grow. It seemed H-D still wanted to do a lot with it, just without me involved. I said forget it.

    Then it began the first letter from the lawyers. They said I couldn’t call it a Harley-Davidson engine. What? I bought it from a Harley dealership it was all Harley. So off to court we went. I won. Then another letter came. This one said “by rights the drive and all the design rights belong to them”. Again, WHAT? They said because it will bolt to their motor it’s their’. So.. off to court again. Well by now I was pissed. So it’s on.
    You see where this is going yet?
    So it went, sued for a sticker on it that said “Powered by Harley”. Then they sued me for the name “HOG AIR”, then for my web site, etc. Now keep in mind my lawyer and even a Judge said on most of the suits they have no chance to win. Hell one time they flew in 4 or 5 lawyers in privet jets from all over the country. Well guess what, pretty soon I was broke. Worse than broke, now I was in debt. I even sold the plane to get money. But I didn’t care, it was the principle. But principles don’t pay the bills. So at some point I just had to quit. So in the end they win by default. That was a few years ago and I am still trying to pull out of it. To this day I still have $0 in my savings account. Now that it’s all said and done people ask me, was it all worth it? If you had it all to do again, would you? HELL YES I WOULD! In fact I’m looking for something else right now that I can do to stir the s—t pot.
    So I have to stand behind John on this one. Not that I’m saying one way or another who is right or who is wrong. I simply don’t have near enough facts to make that call. Like I said before, it really doesn’t affect me. But I would much rather see money go into a new motorcycle company than a bunch of lawyers pockets. Maybe that’s just me. As for some of you, damn. I wish I had that kind of insight and knew the facts and out come before it even goes to court. I’d be a Millionaire.
    If this dispute does end up in court and John ends up wining, will those of you that are so quick to point fingers be as quick to say “I’m sorry I was wrong”. Somehow I think not. I never heard anyone say they were wrong when my plane flew, or when I beat H-D in court and proved them wrong.

  164. 164 JH Sep 28th, 2011 at 8:16 am


    Very interesting story. Unfortunately, you are not the first one that I have read about that experienced the same thing with Harley. Legal fees beat the small man down not matter how good his ideas are. That is too bad…. what happened to the American dream?

    Sounds like you are a guy with great ideas… I hope things work out for you.

  1. 1 A Case Of Trademark Enforcement By Polaris Industries – Indian Motorcycle Against Crazy Horse Motorcycles | ProRidersMarketing Pingback on Sep 22nd, 2011 at 9:11 am
  2. 2 Polaris, Indian Go After Crazy Horse | Pingback on Sep 23rd, 2011 at 5:15 am
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