Cyril Huze’s 10 Motorcycle Predictions For 2013

Here’s the thing about predictions: they are always fun to make (and to read) and no one ever remembers a year later what they were. So there is basically no reason not to whip out the crystal ball and start forecasting. That you agree or not, I hope that my 2013 predictions will give you plenty to chew on. Ready to send me flames (please, with your real name & email) or to support my convictions? Now is your time to express your opinion with rationales.

Prediction 1. Harley-Davidson Again The World’s Most Admired Motorcycle Company. Caught in the economic downturn of 2008 with an aging clientele and no new models in the pipeline to attract younger customers, many bikers, even employees and top executives thought that the company would die in the next 10 years. New Harley Chairman and CEO Keith Wandell started a massive 5-year restructuring plan including shuttering plants, modernizing facilities, doing painful major job cuts, ending its Buell sport motorcycle brand and selling its Italian brand motorcycle subsidiary. Today, 4 years into the plan, Harley-Davidson has efficient operations, has been able to shorten its new products cycle to adjust to new motorcycle trends, is leading all manufacturers in terms of percentage of female and young buyers and is in extremely good position in developing and emerging countries to take advantage of a fast growing middle class. In the US and Europe where sales growth is probably limited to about 3% per year, budget crisis may dent some quarter results, but Harley-Davidson is re-emerging in 2013 as one of the strongest and most profitable motorcycle companies in the world. I have no doubt that Keith Wandell draconian restructuring strategy will soon become a business school case study. Winners: all bikers, independent shops and after-market part vendors. Losers: mass produced factory customs.

Prediction 2. The New Indian Motorcycle Is Going To Be The Biggest Media Story Of The Year And Maybe Of The Years After… The rebirth of this iconic brand, probably at the time of Sturgis Bike Week, may be history in the making. Not a professional or biker who doesn’t wish success to Polaris, but many still fear some disappointment regarding the new bike design, performance and price. I expect a premium new model because Indian is a premium brand. But price will be much lower than the King’s Mountain era Chief model. None of the components will be borrowed from Victory. For the 1st time in its history, Polaris (like Harley-Davidson always did so well) will certainly use Indian’s rich history to gain momentum leading to the launch. It is easy to predict that Polaris marketing and advertising strategies will leverage the launch using the brand itself, the connection between Indian riders, the apparel and the accessories. To create a massive buzz, I predict that Polaris will only use digital platforms, the only media (versus print magazines) where people have an instant voice, can share, spread the word, and where Indian can engage directly and authentically with potential customers. Knowing that a few weeks ago during the IMS Long Beach Show Indian released the sound of the new engine, I also predict that the company will continue to feed the buzz with a teaser campaign, releasing on a regular basis, via digital news websites like this one and social networks, pictures of  close-up details of chassis,  engine, war bonnet, etc until full new model release in August. Winners: the motorcycle industry, in 2014 custom builders and new Indian custom after-market part vendors. Losers: Marginally Harley-Davidson (many Harley buyers tell me they postpone a new bike purchase until the Indian launch), but mainly Triumph & Norton the year these 2 brands are trying to make a big push on the US market.

Prediction 3. Polaris Efforts Will Focus On Touring Victory Models, Not On Cruisers. Victory success and good reputation is getting more and more concentrated on its line of tourers, great competitors of those offered by Harley-Davidson. In a year where Polaris dedicates most of the motorcycles marketing division’s efforts on the re-birth of Indian it would be very surprising if the company would launch a brand new cruiser. To widen its customers base Polaris would have more interest in diversifying its touring line up, for example with a true convertible for those looking for riding comfort but rarely doing long range trips. Winners: customizers specializing in touring bikes, all touring accessory vendors.

Prediction 4. The Fastest Growing Segment Of The Custom Motorcycle Industry Will Be After-Market Parts For the Harley-Davidson Sportster Model. New young bikers, male or female, discover it to become their first motorcycle, Experienced middle age riders rediscover it as the machine who gave them so much pleasure when they were younger. The Harley Sportster’s appeal is almost universal among those who don’t need a touring bike. Easy to own, new or used. Fun to ride with. Both balanced and responsive with outstanding maneuverability. An urban brawler that young riders love for its dripping attitude and that older bikers love for being reminiscent of the gritty dirt tracks and drag strips of the 1950s. Whatever you want to do with it, the XL is an easy starting point for customization. Make it look menacing, prepare it ready for racing the streets or the strips, make it pretty for boulevard cruising, its customization possibilities are endless. Combination of wheel size, balloon tires, change of geometry with short front ends and generous rear suspension via long shocks under a high tail section, it can be a Bobber, a Cafe Racer, a cruiser and everything between. Recently, I was reminded by a professional of the industry that during the last 5 years about half a million Sportsters have changed hands, NOT including new bike sales!. Each change of ownership implies a few new parts bought… There is an incredible potential of new custom part offerings to please the Sportster riders, much more than for the touring bikes market sef\gment. Winners: manufacturers of rear shocks, body kits, fenders, gas tanks, front ends, clip bars, gauges, performance kits, etc. Backyard builders and old school garages.

Prediction 5. Bike Flipping Is Going To Be The New Rage For Garage Builders And small Shops. Spend time in a Swap Meet, search eBay, your local motorcycles trader magazine, barns, etc. Find a basket case, a rusted gem or part of it for a couple of thousand dollars or less. Pick the ones easy to restore or customize. All brands welcome.. The objective is NOT to put the bike in its original manufacturing state, but to offer a buyer a fun bike to ride for a very reasonable price (a 1st used car price). Time is the essence. Flip the reborn bike as fast as possible. Create a small local riding club, meet new friends, new buyers, new leads to new sleeping gems. Repeat. Make money. Start a business. In 2013, Discovery may start a new TV show series based on the above storyline. If it’s the case, expect an explosion of bike flippers all over the country.

Prediction 6. New Bagger Trend: A Leaner Bagger With No Bling, No Hallucinogen Paint And No Professional DJ Sound System Equipment. “Baby boomers switch from riding a Cruiser or Chopper to a Bagger. So, let’s do for them what we did on their bikes in the 90’s…” It’s the way many custom builders went overboard, fitting Baggers will all sort of unjustified panels and extensions (I have seen drawers!?!) with no other purpose that showing that you can fabricate steel or fiberglass, or to attach more bling and paint more murals than your competitors at the Baggers Bike Show. It’s the way, especially during these last 2 years, that beautiful Baggers turned into giant disproportionate monsters. The good thing is that such a spectacle for which was created a couple of Bagger magazines and bike shows, is going to end. The backlash is coming in the form of good custom builders taking their revenge in customizing Baggers to look better, not worse, and touring better than out of the factory. I predict that they will be chopped out, thinner, offering as much comfort and good riding position, but with superb flowing lines not interrupted by “easter eggs” or “back from the grave” paint jobs.

Prediction 7. The Death Of The Giant 30″ Bagger Front Wheel. Size 23″, then 26″, then 30″. What’s next? Evidently, I embrace the art of custom motorcycles, even some of its excesses because they may help progress, but no more when in direct conflict with the main purpose of a bike, riding safely. True that a Bagger appearance may be enhanced by a taller front wheel. But when is tall too tall? Answer may be subjective on the aesthetic point of view. But not on the safety issue when the Bagger can’t no more function like a touring motorcycle, when the installation of a 30″ wheels implies a modification of the frame structure (and if not well done, integrity) In the past, excessive Chopper bike frame raking without respect of a safe trail had its consequences. Then outrageous rear tire size (width) has shown many (who should have known better) that a motorcycle is not and doesn’t work like a monster truck. 21″ or 23″ size front wheel on a Bagger may remain. I doubt about the 26″, 30″ and above (?), except if you just want to look at your piece of art and maybe win  plastic trophies over 30″ tall in bike shows.

Prediction 8. Custom Bike Building Getting Less And Less Segmented Between American & Metric Bikes. “Fusionary” Style Getting Bigger. By economic necessity many Custom Builders who specialized in American motorcycles have already crossed over, applying their skills to other foreign & exotic brands. In addition, custom bike building is no more limited to either building from the ground up or customizing factory bikes. Also for budget reasons custom bike building now starts from cheap donor bikes of all origins and age, the project being completed with parts belonging to different motorcycle brands for a final appearance always fresh and unique. Mixing and matching parts that never met before on the same motorcycle is probably the most interesting development in the custom motorcycle industry. I call this style “Fusionary” because it requires from the builder the ability to make stranger parts fusion harmoniously (work together) and to be able to envision well in advance what the aesthetic result will be. Thank the new or next generation of Custom Builders for this trend born from necessity. “Fusionary” building is going to expand and find acceptance from buyers.

Prediction 9. Harley-Davidson US Dealer Network Will Shrink Again By 10%. Indian Will Have A Separate Dealers Network. Nobody in the motorcycle industry expects heavy cruiser sales to grow more than 3% per year during the next 5 years. Dealers with more than one store have reassessed their needs in terms of business sales per square footage and will continue to close inefficient locations. Corporate Harley will continue to monitor its dealers implantation and will turn down new openings in non-key markets and in key markets with already strong dealers.  Indian will have a separate dealer network – not all Polaris dealers -although it will probably include Victory Motorcycle dealers in key markets and the few remaining Indian dealers of the “Kings Mountain” era.

Prediction 10. Black Will Remain The Color Of Choice, But Only For Accessories. Bright paint Colors Are Back With Shy Return Of Chrome Parts. Too many all blacked out custom motorcycles. Hard metal flake colors, Japanese style graphics and simple 2-tone paint jobs against black anodized or powder coated parts will dominate the 2013 custom scene. Overused  retro grey, green and brown machine colors are out. Candy-apple colors and gleaming chrome will be preferred by most female riders.

86 Responses to “Cyril Huze’s 10 Motorcycle Predictions For 2013”

  1. 1 GuitarSlinger Jan 2nd, 2013 at 9:11 am

    #1 – I wish but in light of their recent moves as well as off shore doings I rather doubt it . Add to that the Euro bikes ( BMW etc ) now being the darlings of the well heeled set … having displaced Harley as they’ve become passe’ in the well heeled set – fashionista – hipsters ever changing minds
    #2 – I’ll bet against that one in a big way unless you’re including negative press
    #3- One can only hope seeing as how the Cruiser thing has been a flop financially for them from the get go
    #4 – Maybe
    #5 -I rather Doubt it
    #6 -Lets hope and pray
    #7 – See #6
    #8 – I’ll go along with that
    #9 – I’ll say 20-30% in light of the economic storm on the horizon
    #10 – Friends don’t let friends ride Neon ! Nuff said

  2. 2 Hamilton Jan 2nd, 2013 at 9:17 am

    First time ever I read motorcycle industry predictions and I must say that i agree with almost all. Just don’t know about the new Indian. Hope we are not disappointed.

  3. 3 Ryan Jan 2nd, 2013 at 9:33 am

    Maybe Cyril is writing more than predictions but by the same token also launching new trends: bike flipping. after-market Sportster parts, bike colors etc.

  4. 4 Greeko Jan 2nd, 2013 at 9:34 am

    I like the bike flipping predictions. If true, it will help many youngsters enter the business. Excellent.

  5. 5 B. Keizer Jan 2nd, 2013 at 9:37 am

    At least somebody in the business has opinions and convictions. Like it.

  6. 6 Ken Miller Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:00 am

    Glad to see anything positive for the bike Industry.

  7. 7 Brent King Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:08 am

    Very positive stuff. Cyril hope you are right. I have a tendency to think that 2013 is going to be a great year for the economy and the motorcycle industry.

  8. 8 Thomas Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:14 am

    Looks pretty close to correct to me .I would like to add more 70s style choppers coming back .

  9. 9 Robert Pandya Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:17 am

    Cyril, thank you for the positive predictions for 2013. The staff here at Indian Motorcycle, and Polaris Industries take pride in our work and we are as anxious to give you news are everyone here is to learn what we are doing. Readers on your site have a dedication and passion towards the industry that allows us an unfiltered perspective that we appreciate. We take the stewardship of the Indian Motorcycle brand seriously, and there is one thing that we know for sure – no matter what we do, somebody will complain.
    Somebody will question or decision to go with black tires, or complain about the bike not coming stock with straight pipes, a hand shifter or why we chose to not build an Indian hovercraft for the first model. Knowing that there will be detractors, we are also certain that the brand has never had as much of a chance to prosper and grow as it does with Polaris Industries. The company strength is undeniable, and every staffer who wears an Indian logo feels the pressure to “do it right”.
    Thank you for covering the brand and for your positive prediction not only for Indian but for the industry. I will give you one scoop – the new Indian Motorcycle model will not come with a 30” wheel. It may in fact not have any wheels at all. (That last bit is just to stoke the hovercraft speculators!) All the best to you and your readers in 2013, happy trails and lots of miles behind handlebars to all of you.

    Robert Pandya
    External Relations Manager
    Indian Motorcycle

  10. 10 Laurence Zankowski Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:20 am


    Maybe a corollary to number 5 might be the increase of small machine shops and / or increase of output of small machine shops to help produce needed parts for these bike flips.

    To a great 2013!
    Be well


  11. 11 Johny Letgo. Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:23 am

    Love it when an executive of a big company like Polaris/Indian does more than read Cyril and talks directly to us. Great marketing approach. Wish others in the industry act this way.

  12. 12 Joe Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:25 am

    I think another prediction is continued growth of the small bike market. This is continuing as a result of new riders entering the market, high gasoline prices, and riders wanting smaller (easier to handle) motorcycles.

  13. 13 CDM Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:32 am

    #5 requires a Motor Vehicle Dealer’s license in most states if you want to “repeat” enough times to make it worthwhile.

  14. 14 Reyn Mansson Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:37 am

    #1 – undeniable
    #2 – A new iconic brand, even non-mc press will jump on this, yes it will effect HD little, maybe Triumph Storm [an excellent alternative to a Dyna] but Norton no impact. Doubt there will be an Indian cafe racer
    #3 – Yes
    #4- I see it everyday, 1001 variations on the Sporty
    #5 – Seeing that already in hip cities like Seattle
    #6-8 – no comment, I think the coolest bagger is the new F6B Wing and somebody has got to rein in the unsafe building trends like 30″ wheels
    #9 – The trend will be consolidation, groups are buying up dealers. Fewer and Fewer true owner-operated shops. Polaris is already setting up Vic dealers as Indian shops so don’t think that is the trend. Polaris ATV only stores are now being pushed to take bikes on. I disagree on the separate dealer system for the new, new, new, Indian
    #10 – I dislike flat black bikes so much that if you gave me one I’d buy rattle cans on the way home just to get color

  15. 15 ian Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:41 am

    happy new year to you and nice to read some on the whole positive prediction – for us Europeans, the ones that have the most resonance are 4, 5 and 10 – and particularly this year I am already noticing real changes in these areas. In the case of the other items – have to say I love the look of the new Moto Guzzi California – give me one of them rather than a Polaris or HD bagger 🙂 Have a good one all.

  16. 16 Steve Kelly Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:41 am

    Cyril, I enjoyed reading your predictions for 2013, they are well thought out and must have taken some time to formulate. I think point one is a given. I’m very hopeful for point 2 and just hope that they do not forget overseas press like myself when it comes time for the launch and who gets access to the test fleet. As for the rest, I love the idea broached in point 5 as it would give me plenty of affordable custom rides to feature.

  17. 17 Jim Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:44 am

    Every Harley rider should be rooting for Victory and Indian’s success! Their success will push HD to improve their bikes thus giving HD loyalists a better product. The reverse goes for Vic and Indian riders rooting for HD. That competition will yield a better American motorcycle for everyone. Victory has been around about 13 years. Think how many advancements HD has made in that time vs the previous 13. Coincidence? I know the sales differences are huge. However HD can’t dismiss Vic and Indian like they can Honda and Yamaha.

    Very soon we will have three legitimate choices in American motorcycles. Think about that… Three! I wish the very best 2013 to Harley, Victory, and Indian!

  18. 18 R. Brennar Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:49 am

    In a couple of sentences Cyril just killed the musical hallucinogen 30″ bagger tiny market. Ha, ha, ha. For the rest, Cyril may be 99% right.

  19. 19 3BikeMike Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:57 am

    Whether Cyril is correct or not in any or all of his predictions, at least he has the guts to voice his opinion, unlike the other larger independent bike builders and larger companies out there. I have always admired his forward thinking in both design and ability to maintain his edge on the web and the custom bike world. Kudos Cyril!

    While I’m not a huge fan of Indian or Harley, (I own 3 true one off pro streets) I found it refreshing to see Robert from Indian even acknowledge Cyril’s comments. Hopefully in the next 1-2 days we’ll see some feedback from other companies in the industry!

    I always enjoy reading Cyril’s blogs! Keep up the grrrrreat work C.

  20. 20 BobS Jan 2nd, 2013 at 11:06 am

    #3 I hope not, but it’s a reasonable prediction. Being a big fan of cruisers in general and a huge fan of Victory’s motor/engineering I would hate to see this segment put on the back burner. It certainly wasn’t in 2012 although I do suspect some of the innovations planned for Victory cruisers may have been diverted to Indian, thus leaving Victory’s cruisers with cosmetic changes. Mind you I’m talking about new stuff, not parts sharing.

  21. 21 bean're Jan 2nd, 2013 at 11:21 am

    I predict a new hit TV show airing centered around motorcycles.

  22. 22 Rodent Jan 2nd, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    Are you announcing or predicting ?

  23. 23 Joseph Jan 2nd, 2013 at 12:35 pm

    3BikeMike. I don’t think that many in the custom industry are able to plan, forecast & predict like Cyril. Most live each day at work wondering how they can impress people with their new ideas, bikes or parts. Most have no strategy, are not inclined to please bikers, only themselves. Reason why we see each year so many stupid things being done and even good craftsmen closing their doors. They bitch about China, Obama, healthcare or whatever but the real problem is that they don’t want to help themselves by being a little bit marketing minded and wonder about what the consumer wants today and tomorrow. BTW, I like Cyril’s predictions.

  24. 24 Rob Campbell Jan 2nd, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    I like the feel of this vision, Cyril.

    I like the sensibility in building bikes you see coming. I like the strength of two American bike manufacturers (I think you committed three of your predictions to them), and I really like the blurring of lines between American and Metric.

    In the end, none of it will really effect me personally, directly, as I’ll probably keep riding the shovelhead I’ve had for 25 years, but I like the world you paint.

  25. 25 Motorcycle Marc Jan 2nd, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    Well articulated and on point Cyril. Let’s watch the year develop. Happy New Year to you and yours.

  26. 26 AFT Customs Jan 2nd, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    We invented fusionary. We’ve been using MX, Sportbike & HD parts to build metric customs for years. We took a lot of shit for it. Especially from people on this blog. Thanks Cyril for recognizing this trend in the industry.. We didn’t trash talk the 30″ bagger crowd although It wouldn’t be a bike we would build. We looked at it as part of the evolutionary process of our industry & an experiment. The public wanted it. It will lead new designs & more bikes for a lot of you to make fun of & hopefully some that you will like. We built a stripped down Honda bagger in 2006 with a suicide shifter & air ride front & rear. called “Gutta”.

  27. 27 Boots Jan 2nd, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    Hopefully in 2013, Indian will be able to stand alone without the word “Polaris” next to it. I also hope Indian will have a few models that the “average Joe” can afford! They already have the high end extremely expensive ones covered. I say this with the hope I will have one in my garage one day without getting that second mortgage on my house!

  28. 28 Smittydog Jan 2nd, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Do you read palms too?

  29. 29 Christy Jan 2nd, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    I quite agree with all predictions, but the “Premium Indian brand/Premium Price” bothers me somewhat. Hope it’s not 35K. Can you tell us more, Cyril? You probably know, but I will understand silence for now.

  30. 30 Jester Jan 2nd, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    Cyril has guts and is right more often than others. Go to talk to him in a show.

  31. 31 3BikeMike Jan 2nd, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    Hi Joseph!!

    I partially agree with your comments concerning the people in custom industry with their inability to plan, forecast & predict – however, the only way new ideas and concepts ARE developed and create an interest are exactly by impressing people with new ideas. That’s how new trends are started.

    There are plenty of talented & unique custom bike builders out there, however none of them appear to be educated enough to further themselves like Cyril has over the years. Many, if not all of these custom guys live from paycheck to paycheck, like the regular blue collar class of society and have always ridden the wave of the industry or simply have their head where the sun doesn’t shine!

  32. 32 domino Jan 2nd, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    Indian hovercraft?!?! awwwhahahahahaha… Good to hear from Indian w/sense of humor… Best of luck Robert…

  33. 33 MC Insider Jan 2nd, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    3BikeMike. Pssst. Cyril is highly educated. Had several successful professional careers. Don’t share.

  34. 34 Rick Lossner Jan 2nd, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    Got a spot in my garage waiting for a ’14 Indian

    Feel free to ship it with Straight Pipes, Hand Shifter and Blackwall Tires ……… REALLY hoping Indian went for the Gold and bumped the size up to 111ci or more….. .. just because!

  35. 35 MC Insider Jan 2nd, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    Should we list all custom builders, vendors, limited edition “manufacturers” who have disappeared since 2008? Many by their own fault, their lack of anticipation. Cyril must know about a few new exits going to happen. You will recognize them, they don’t pay their bills but smile and show off a lot in rallies. Like nobody knows…

  36. 36 Curtis Moss Jan 2nd, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    Where are all Harley bashers? Cyril states that it is now again the most admired motorcycle company in the world after Keith Wandell’s decisions and actions and now nobody dares to disagree with Cyril…

  37. 37 GuitarSlinger Jan 2nd, 2013 at 4:37 pm

    Well … hate to play Devils Advocate as well as Prophet of Doom here but in all honesty there’s no substance behind all this well meaning optimism being displayed today . In case y’all weren’t paying attention almost everybody’s annual income tax as of 12:01 am 1/1/13 is going up ….. everyone without exceptions monthly taxes are rising …. as well as your Social Security payments … which means less money in everyone’s back pocket at the end of the month … which means less money for things like a new scoot . Period .

    Add to that mine and Curtis Moss’s questioning of The Motor Company’s future directions and decisions … along with the serious doubts that Polaris will succeed with their ( cough ) new over priced and underwhelming Indian ( read JT Nesbit’s opinions on the matter ) and well ….. hey I dig Cyril as much as the next guy …. respect the man to no end …. but even the best get it wrong or impose their own wishful thinking on things from time to time

  38. 38 Lyle Landstrom Jan 2nd, 2013 at 4:44 pm

    If Indian made a Hovercraft, Polaris could pull it off. But if they really wanted to make a splash, they’d bring back the Indian 4 which could justify premium prices. But whatever you do Polairis, don’t re-clone a Harley and call it an Indian which is what the last two resurrections have done. Please keep the bike simple and not HOG it out into an oversized cruiser or bagger.

  39. 39 3BikeMike Jan 2nd, 2013 at 5:04 pm

    Pssst…MC Insider – I know he is – that’s what I’m insinuating… Cyril appears to be more intelligent than all of the dudes at the helm of the big bike manufactures as well.

  40. 40 P. Semery Jan 2nd, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    GuitarSlinger. I think you just lost credibility in one post.

    Except the Soc. Sec. Tax coming back to what it was 2 years ago (+2%). Explain to us how everybody is going to pay more taxes? Are you another disappointed republican who was certain to win the November election? Complete BS.

    How can you criticize the new Indian? You saw it? Know the price? Complete BS.

    Curtis Moss makes a comment making fun of Cyril’s readers who denigrated Harley. Now they are gone because they were wrong. You misunderstood 100%.

    You predict collapse of the economy (since 4 years +). I predict the opposite. At 4 pm ET. stock market is up 3.8% for the day after Fiscal Cliff partial agreement of yesterday. LOL.

  41. 41 BobS Jan 2nd, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    Well GS I’ll say it. Kieth Wandell is a douchebag bean counting fascist that only has ideas how to squeeze another drip of blood out of a turnip and no ideas about how to make motorcycles that guys want to buy. The demise of Harley? Hardley. He wont be the only pitiful valley in Harley’s history but he sure as hell wont be a peak either. I predict over the next 5-10 years Harley becomes stagnant and loses market share. Wandell will eventually be relieved with a 20 million dollar golden parachute and be replaced by a guy that makes yet another Harley comeback. As for your political leanings and interpretations…let me buy you a beer to cry in and a TV dial broke, set on FOX. The rest of us know that A, the corner is turned and good times are here and getting better. AND, we know it’s not because of some dipshit politician or stupid party affiliation either. We did it, no thanks to any of them. They are ALL, R’s and D’s, just as bad as Wandell.

  42. 42 Raymond Jan 2nd, 2013 at 5:38 pm

    At GuitatSlinger.

    These tax increases on the wealthiest Americans have conservatives in a tizzy that it could cause a decrease in investment spending, hurting the nation’s modest economic recovery. But while it is true that some taxpayers in this group might be deterred from investing, it is unlikely that it would make any difference one way or another in the health of the overall economy given just how small this group is on the overall investment landscape of the country.

    Contrary to what you think, Americans will continue to buy new motorcycles.

  43. 43 Eddie Trotta Jan 2nd, 2013 at 5:42 pm

    I think you have found your calling Cyril !
    Great predictions all of them ,
    Everyone has their fingers crossed about
    The style of the Indians but being a victory
    Dealer I think we all know that mechanically
    They will be as fantastic as everything else
    Polaris touches ,
    The Indian will be a serious threat to the market
    Place in years to come !

  44. 44 burnout Jan 2nd, 2013 at 6:53 pm

    I agree with Mr Huze. Will be interesting to watch and see what happens. peace

  45. 45 Seymour Jan 2nd, 2013 at 6:56 pm

    LOL Here we go again, Indian corporate speak: “The Brand” > “The Motorcycle” > “The Customer”

  46. 46 3BikeMike Jan 2nd, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    Geeez Cyril — your blog works SEO wonders for your brand! Just another stroke of genius! : )

  47. 47 Rodent Jan 2nd, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    I never saw an Indian either 2 wheeled or 2 legged till I moved to NM in 1972. Then very quickly I got involved with both the 2 legged variety in a battle on the Santa Fe Plaza and the 2 wheeled ones , one afternoon overlooking the Taos Plaza with one Wayne Bachman. Since Wayne I’ve seen an Samoan TV actor playing Indian for the disatorous Gilroy reincarnation and then the next Indian folly in North Carolina. So do I look at the latest rebirth of Indian with suspicion ? God damm right I do. Polaris has the best chance of pulling it off, will they or will they join the ranks of past failures? Time will tell. Until then only Kiwi Mike has made the only credible repop of the Springfield Indian!

  48. 48 Dave Blevins Jan 2nd, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    I predict 2013 to have more true restorations of old bikes of all makes & models. People seem to love the bikes in their original form… newer bikes however, a more radical style.
    Just my 2 wheat pennies.

  49. 49 Dan C Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:36 am

    In a perfect world I’d have to agree with most of your predictions, Cyril, but this ain’t a perfect world and all the hoopla over avoiding the fiscal cliff is misdirected. Obama sold us down the river again and when the next fiscal cliff (in just a couple months) hits, he’s got nothing left to bargain with and all of us approaching the age of entitlements are going to be left out in the cold, literally. The market, at least in this country, for new of flipped bikes is shrinking and I doubt that three competing american bike manufacturers can survive in the coming economy, let alone those of us who make a few bucks on the side building from the old iron pile. Just my prediction.

    But keep it coming, I love your stuff.

  50. 50 John Jan 3rd, 2013 at 1:11 am

    Dont agree with prediction # 1,
    To Curtis, The Harley bashers will come, as soon as the quality of your bike goes backwards.
    I am an ex Harley employee / supplier. My job and the product I made for HD is now MADE IN CHINA!! You get what you pay for !!!

    Keith will continue to get his huge bonuses at the expense of the brand, then when the wheels completely fall off, Keith will move onto the next big company for the next big bonus.
    Go Victory !! Go the Indian !!!!

  51. 51 courtney Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:29 am

    Well but I swear there was an article here a few months ago explaining that Polaris WILL CERTAINLY be interchanging some parts between Victory and Indian simply for the sake of economy. I read it here, and frankly, I can’t imagine otherwise either.

    Soooo… in my mind, the new Indian will represent more closely a new Victory model and will only be related to it’s Indian ancestors by name and styling only. It may be a cool bike, but it will be closer to Victory than any Indian from Springfield.

    Oh, and the suspense game being played by Polaris would have been awesome in 1998 or so. But now that Indian has been sort of half-arsed resurrected for the past 13 years, well (yeah, insert yawn here)….

  52. 52 Hamilton Jan 3rd, 2013 at 7:03 am

    Courtney. I remember very well Cyril saying that there will be zero component shared between Victory and Indian. It’s some readers who don’t believe it, like you.

    Rodent. You belong to the category of people who think that the new Indian should look like in the past. Huge mistake for Polaris if they would do this (I don’t think they will) If Indian would have survived they would not offer today motorcycles looking like in the 50’s. Nobody cares about repps. (true old Indian riders hate Kiwi for its repps and excluded him from all Old Indian events) The challenge for Polaris is to present a new model looking like the filiation of Springfield, but with modern technology. Some visual cues from the past (at least war bonnet, valences fender), but not more than this.

  53. 53 Broadway lee Jan 3rd, 2013 at 7:14 am

    As usual Cyril is dialed in to our bike world and hope the predictions come to be

  54. 54 Biloxi Jan 3rd, 2013 at 7:21 am

    After a 1st quarter with ups & downs due to the politician fights in Washington, I predict a great 2013 for the stock market and the motorcycle business. The US has never been in better shape since 2007. Consumers are more optimistic, spend more. 401 K are up, housing prices stabilized or are up. Polaris is lucky that the launch will be done in a positive environment. Kings Mountain was not so lucky.

  55. 55 Rodent Jan 3rd, 2013 at 7:52 am

    Remember when Kawisucki made a knock- off Indian that was a real close repop of the classic style untill they got sued? It can be done, classically, legally, and profitably.
    Also, many Harley models retain their classic look and so does Triumph and the soon to be Norton!

  56. 56 badams Jan 3rd, 2013 at 10:24 am

    Prediction #4, already happening. EMEA and APAC buyers and builders are using them as platforms to stylize and / or run stock for urban riding. NAM is behind but not in CA; hot rod, street tracker/mule becoming the norm, making mince meat out of all others. That stigma of its a “girls bike” is reserved for those subscribe to the sleeveless “Bike Week” shirt as the go to for riding gear.

    This leads to prediction #5 :: Since #4 is a girls bike, Mr sleeveless- cigar smoking -Bike Week guy, lets run the 1/8th(hell even the 1/4) for pinks.

    You bring your tough guy parade float(the big bad Harley) and I’ll bring a stroked machined little rocket(the girls bike). Bring your title and registration, along with any related DMV and bank loan paperwork, you’ll be having to sign it over (free and clear, please take another HELOC to pay off the loan balance as needed) once the girls bike has demolished the parade float.

    Prediction #5 comes to fruition as your former bike is parted out right there at the swap meet for the vultures pick at. You can keep the “Live to Ride” badges; the #5 guys will likely use them as ashtrays anyway.

  57. 57 Robert Pandya Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:07 am

    Courtney – please read this as clearly as I can write it. The new Indian Motorcycle will not be derivative of, or a version of a Victory model, platform, or design. Victory Motorcycles and Indian Motorcycle models each will seek their own customers. Yes there is cross-over, but that is the great freedom of the consumer market.

    Lyle – the new Indian Motorcycle will not be a HD Clone (seriously – do you think we would do that?).

    Rick – as you know the government will not allow the bike to ship from the factory with straight pipes or a hand shifter. Thus: accessories and aftermarket sales.

    Both brands (sorry Seymour, that is the language of business) are developed out of the multi-million dollar development center in Wyoming, MN; but they are each managed by different product teams. Polaris has immediate access to an astonishing amount of technical information that will cross-over to many internal combustion platforms. There is shared engineering prowess – and that is a great thing when you consider the high quality, performance and design of Polaris Industries vast array of products.

    The Industrial Design teams are deeply invested in research and experience with the pre-1953 products. They are the foundation for Indian Motorcycle of course – but our job is to build the future Indian Motorcycle – which does not mean George Jetsons’ Indian Motorcycle.

    Lastly, we again know that no matter what we do, there will be those who hate it, don’t care, or feel threatened for one reason or another. Those people will make noise that a true enthusiast of motorcycling should see through. What we know is that there are many many more riders who want Indian Motorcycle to return as a committed, strong and viable American motorcycle on the market. Millions of dollars are being spend by a 3 billion dollar company to do it right. Indian Motorcycle deserves that level of stability, attention, and commitment and we thank you enthusiasts for sharing in this history in the making.

    2013 is a big year in the history of motorcycling. The 15th anniversary of Victory, the 110th anniversary of HD, and the re-launch of America’s first motorcycle company. Basically – ’13 is going to be a great year for all riders.

    We look forward to seeing you all on the road.

    Robert Pandya
    External Relations Manager
    Indian Motorcycle

  58. 58 rex Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    Buell. I don’t Harley Davidson did a good job with either Buell or MV Agusta. What a shame. There were buyers out there, ready to buy the Buell end of the business, the complete company. They would of kept the production in East Troy and everyone would of kept their job and America would have an American Sport Bike. No, they just sold everything piece meal at the Buell factory, and sold MV Agusta for a cup of coffee. What a shame.

    Indian. If anyone can make Indian work, it is Polaris. I hope you are right, and the bike will not be a Harley Clone. I own Buells, Triumphs, and would love to own an Indian, but not at the current prices. use the strength of Polaris and come up with a truly American Motorcycle that can be affordable by the masses. You quality, build expertise, and your network could create a truly unique American Made Motorcycle for America.

    Harley. As far as re organizing, they probably did a good job. Concentrate on what you do best. A big, heavy, two wheel cruiser, where you can bolt on a lot of accessories. There is so much more potential.
    Your V Rod motor is great, but is only being used in a bike that does not use the motors potential. Put it in a good handling, lighter frame, more of a standard motorcycle. The XR 1200 is 100 lbs too heavy. Put some Erik Buell engineering into it, cut 100 lbs, and you will have a winner. The problem is that the average harley rider does not want that type of bike. That is why it is sitting in your showrooms. Take some of the techology of the Buell XB motors and put into your sportster motors. then you will have a winner.

  59. 59 Bob Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    Robert- It’s so great that you take a few minutes to spread some truth! The speculators are so crazy with their predictions and assumptions, based purely in guess-work. I think Jim also really hit the nail on the head: With THREE American Motorcycle brands out there, competing for our money, we the motorcycling public win! More competition making everything better- Better bikes, better prices. Yep, I’d have to give props to Victory for Harley’s surge in improvements over the last 10 years. We add Indian to that mix, and all three brands will be competing to build the best bikes on the road. That my friends, is awesome.

  60. 60 Robert Pandya Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    Rex… please read this closely:

    The new Indian Motorcycle will not be a Harley-Davidson clone.

    I genuinely do not know how we could be more clear on that.

    Yes it will have an internal combustion engine. Yes it will have 2 wheels in line. And yes it will proudly be and Indian Motorcycle.

    Robert Pandya
    External Relations Manager
    Indian Motorcycle

  61. 61 Matt Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    #1. Most admired BRAND maybe. “Company” though is a little more subjective IMO.

    #2. You need only read the vast amount of attention that every Victory announcement receives on this blog alone to know that the new Indian from Polaris will be the most talked about motorcycle release of the year (At least in the States).

    #3. I agree, The only large gap in Victory’s current cruiser line up IMO is a smaller displacement female/budget/beginner friendly bike. Would love to see what Victory would do for this market but am also doubtful it will happen this year.

    #4. Sounds reasonable. I know used Sportsters are selling for cheaper then they used to in my area and younger people are riding them.

    #5. Wouldn’t surprise me. I’m sure Discovery or History Channel is probably writing the script for a bike restoration “reality” show as I type this =).

    #6. Isn’t this the majority of Baggers now anyway?

    #7. Lets hope so. IMO if the front wheel is blocking your headlight then it’s to f*#cking big!

    #8. Yup. It’s nice to see builders allowing themselves to get more creative.

    #9. Less dealerships will make the investors happy so no doubt Harley will look into it. As for Indian I am sure that Polaris is considering the option but except for their flagship dealer I personally don’t expect to see many more Indian exclusive dealers popping up this or next year at least.

    #10 As someone in the design/marketing field I can testify that bright neon colors (mostly 80’s inspired) are indeed on the way back in a big way. Wouldn’t be surprised to see electric green especially mixed in with black and chrome even more this year.

  62. 62 courtney Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    Hamilton, what I reference is a very recent article here on CHB. The subject of the article was that there would be some interchangeable parts between Victory and Indian due to reasons of economy. That makes the new Indian a cousin of Victory, and decidedly not at all related to its supposed great great grandpa.

    Robert, I am really glad to see you posting here. I enjoy reading your posts and best of luck. However, as for the chosen advertising strategy of gradual suspense in regards to your new version of Indian, I hope history isn’t repeating itself (see below):

    “After a massive promotional campaign, which included multi-page ‘teaser’ ads in major national magazines, some 2.5 million Americans poured into Edsel dealerships on ‘E-Day’, September 4, 1957. But it was quickly apparent that few cars were actually being sold. The public expectation was much higher than the car could live up to, and sales reflected the disappointment.” from Edsel (dot) com


    “…The Edsel was more expensive than other comparable cars, and the price of the loaded, top-of-the-line models that were first on the showroom floor scared many buyers. There was no owner loyalty to count on…. The more cars that failed to sell, the more dealers dropped their Edsel franchise.”

  63. 63 Robert Pandya Jan 3rd, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    Courtney – I believe the article you are referring to is:

    That was one done by Cyril with his opinion based on his perspective at the time.

    I’m not in a position to (yet) speak about the content of the engine – I do know, but I can’t say now.

    We have made a decision to be as forthcoming as possible with our plans and the new bike. For obvious competitive reasons, production timing and development reasons we can’t yet commit to all of our plans. I have personal experience with other brands that puked out product information early, only to have it go flat before it ever showed up on the sales floor resulting in poor sales. Timing for product information news and specifics is a bit of a black art. Mix that with varying market forces, seasonality and the fact that we are not simply launching a motorcycle – but re-launching an iconic brand globally, and you can see the challenges. This is not a job for the impatient.

    There will be news coming out in the months to come – and if that annoys you until you can see the whole bike, then, well, prepared to be annoyed I guess!

    Robert Pandya
    External Relations Manager
    Indian Motorcycle

  64. 64 art Jan 3rd, 2013 at 5:47 pm

    What were your ten predictions for 2012?

  65. 65 Rodent Jan 3rd, 2013 at 6:13 pm

    Open note to someone at Indian .
    Cut the bullshit and show us what’s up.
    Release pictures of the Indian!
    Or maybe an ex or present employee would like to be a hero.
    Cell phone cameras shoot great spy photos!
    We don’t need the hype and big grand unveiling.
    Put up or shut up!

  66. 66 Brandon Jan 3rd, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    Above, it’s humor Rodent style. Ha, ha.

  67. 67 Greeko Jan 3rd, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    Cyril said in prediction 2 (out of 10) that the Indian launch will be the biggest story of 2013. You readers proved that he is right. Just look at the number of comments above about Indian. 1/10th of predictions, 85% of comments. Cyril must smile, Robert Pandya too

  68. 68 bigalyts Jan 3rd, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    Cyril, great work last year and you are on a roll agin this year. Your predictions are great for your Blog. I for see for 2013 that “Contraversy” will be allowed on your Blog! As long as it is in good taste. The Best to you & Your Family & Staff.

  69. 69 nicker Jan 3rd, 2013 at 10:35 pm

    $5 and up a gallon of gas can do nothing but boost the overall MC market.
    But if the economy takes a dive, only small displacement bikes will get a boost.
    Tire, insurance, and marginal mileage are not on the side of big scooters (of any sort).


  70. 70 Robert Pandya Jan 4th, 2013 at 12:23 am

    Greeko – We have been smiling for months. And we very excited about the Spirit Lake Era and what is to come.

    Robert Pandya
    External Relations Manager
    Indian Motorcycle

  71. 71 Selena Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:26 am

    Cyril knows too much about the business to be wrong.

  72. 72 Rodent Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:47 am

    In baseball 3 strikes and you’re out
    4 balls and you walk
    In Indian
    Ball 1 Wayne Bachman
    Ball 2 Gilroy
    Ball 3 Spirit Lake
    Ball 4 Polaris
    This ain’t baseball???

  73. 73 Chris Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24 am

    Hi Cyril. Love your predictions, but surprised by one area not mentioned, the return and growing popularity of the Cafe Bikes. Even some conversions of the right type Harleys into Cafe look bikes. I think they’ve just begun to expand. I’m a ROadking rider, so wouldn’t have one, but I get a fond tingle when I see one resurrected and back on the road because that’s what roamed the Earth when I was in my pre-teen years and wished I could have a motorcycle.

  74. 74 courtney Jan 4th, 2013 at 3:56 pm

    Well I’m really not annoyed as much as I am filled with awful dread. Poor Indian. Surely someone should have just shot that horse a long time ago, or else beat it senseless with a baseball bat long ago, my God have mercy.

    As for Cyril’s prediction #2, yeah, the stench of Indian ONCE AGAIN rising from the depths of the local sewer system will surely draw a crowd — and for years to come, too(!) — if perhaps for all the wrong reasons.

    Look, we gotta face it. Through all the hyper, the new Indian is Polaris’ version of Kawasaki’s Drifter. Don’t get me wrong, that bike was pretty cool, but it will always be just a Kawasaki theme bike. Difference is now Polaris gets to build Indian theme bikes for awhile. Yay….

  75. 75 Steve The Producer Johann Jan 4th, 2013 at 4:10 pm

    Hey Robert you have to come on and share with us!

    As for predictions always love reading them I even copied it and will keep it in my files for revisting this time next year to see what comes to be. ha ha.

    As for a great 2013 I want a great 2013 as much as anyone out there who doesn’t if we all focus on what we can do to make a positive push forward then just maybe we will move forward.

    As for Bike builders not being very smart – I strongly disagree. I have interviewed some of the biggest, oldest and youngest and all these guys are smart in the way they do things, you can’t build a quality custom without using your brain! These guys and gals build from their own visions and they are at the cutting edge of pushing the aftermarket forward. Unlike the mass makers these guys turn on a dime and can and do make changes with every bike they build. They are the trend setters not followers.

    Lastly, some of the best known names in the custom bike world have their hands in the design of the new Indian platform, so you can count on it to be what it should be.

    Here is to a great 2013.

  76. 76 courtney Jan 4th, 2013 at 4:15 pm

    Well, I rewrote my first response above because the first attempt timed out and didn’t show up. Now somehow it shows up after the second attempt. Sorry for the double post….

  77. 77 Mark Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:26 pm


    I’m not sure how you can pass judgement on something you haven’t seen yet. While Victory doesn’t sell near the amount of cycles that H-D does, they established a solid following and a niche market that will only continue to grow. Styling differences aside the foundation of Victory is performance and reliability and that is something that people are responding too. Victory’s P&A offering is continuing to grow and a focus in that area will only help them continue to grow as customization is the bedrock of motorcycling. The fact of the matter is that Indian also has a passionate niche following out there and if there is anyone out there positioned to make them relevant again it is Polaris.

    I also don’t get why people are so worked up about H-D’s re-org and focus shift. They’ve recognized that they can’t ride the Baby Boomers any longer and I think they’ve done an excellent job and bringing in new riders, especially women and broadening their rider base. They are in the position to take some chances and its paying off pretty well for them so far.

    I think we all just need to exhibit a little patience and see what Polaris comes up with. Like other people have said, having three solid American bike manufacturers is great for all of us passionate about riding. It drives competition and will force all three companies to innovate and push the envelope. Let ‘er buck!

  78. 78 Ronnie Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    I think that the statements made by Courtney betray a personal or professional beef against Indian. It would be interesting to know why. Maybe Courtney is not Courtney, just a professional hiding behind this name. Cyril who can track the origin of all comments must know…

  79. 79 martin twofeather Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    Cyril I agree with you and some of it is already going in that direction….

  80. 80 bobs56 Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:28 am

    Indian will be a success especially if they 1. also build a Sportster/Hinckley Bonneville competitor and 2. don’t hang radiators on their new bikes. Put a radiator on either and you instantly lose 1/2 or more of your prospective buyers.

    I don’t understand Cyril’s notion of the big Indian hurting Triumph except perhaps stealing a few Rocket sales away, buyers of which are not neccesarily Americana enthusiasts nor is the Rocket a big part of Triumph’s core business. (ie: triples, adventure bikes and classics).

    The prediction/notion of the ‘bike flipper shops’ is a little late,

  81. 81 bobs56 Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:07 am

    PS. I note that the suddenly numerous and widely followed men’s lifestyle/trend blogs like LeContainer have all been featuring the same type of custom bike now for the last few years and sense will be doing so for some time.

    The bikes are notable for sharing the same attributes: air cooled, mid sized and classic in marques that are usually either British, Italian or Japanese.

    A few production bikes that are or have been recently introduced to meet this trend is the Honda’s new CB1100, Moto Guzzi’s three new V7 iterations, Norton’s Commando, Kawasaki’s new W800. The re-emergence of Royal Enfield and their new Bullet iterations with a larger displacement bike in the works, as well as an upcoming revised Bonneville, spy shots and hints of which have just come out. Not to mention that Hinckley Bonnevilles, Thruxtons and Scramblers sell out as soon as they reach the dealers.
    All mid size, air cooled with classic aesthetics.
    Indian needs to run a bike in this burgeoning ‘class’ as that’s where the new money is going.

  82. 82 deadwood1783 Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Very astute observations Cyril! As for Indian, this is the best chance for a sustainable rebirth of that iconic brand since the original Indian closed. Polaris Industries has what it takes in terms of engineering and business acumen to make this work. I wish them success and applaud the true grit it takes to engage in this most difficult undertaking!

  83. 83 Jezza Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:15 am

    I’m really happy to hear Robert Pandya say the new Indian won’t be a Harley clone. Harley already do Harley very well thank you. I also don’t think Polaris Indian need to go retro, as Kiwi Indian already does that brilliantly. I for one would love to see an Indian that gives a nod to their stylistic heritage, but which is also about innovation, performance and reliability, which is what made Indian’s great in the first place. I wouldn’t want to see them go so radical as to produce Ninja or GSXR clones either, but an aggressive naked cafe racer style bike could be exactly the thing to hit the spot between practical street-ability and Indian’s performance roots. With the financial muscle of Polaris they can afford to be brave, so I’d love to see them taking some risks and creating a really new model line and a new generation of Indian fans.

  84. 84 kevin gray Jan 9th, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    i’m so sick of the harley clone BS. do not any of those people know anything about motorcycle history? harley was in fact cloning indian motors by the 30’s. i am 51, have been riding since i was 8. riding harleys for 30 years now and own 3 kings mountain indians. i get more enjoyment and satisfaction on one of my indians than all of the harleys i have owned combined. i have always been in to motorcycles just never “in to” harleys as most HD owners are who are in fact clones themselves of other bikers they have seen.

  85. 85 courtney Jan 11th, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    Well I’m “courtney” alright. And though I wish I could claim “professional” (lol) bias, alas, I cannot. I am just an insignificant fan of antique Indian motorcycles and have been for almost 20 years. In fact, I am so insignificant in the whole scheme of things (everything, actually) that it’s really laughable. I am nothing but just an opinion. Perhaps totally wrong at that. But maybe right.

    Indian has been dragged through the mud for years and years and years — and well before my own birth. In the late ’90’s I was elated that the judicial system had (finally) ruled in such a way as to pave the way for Indian’s eventual rebirth. Little did I know that years and years (a decade+ later) that Indian’s re-birth would still be languishing as it is: in the mud. What’s new…. So much promise, and so little results. And a Harley Clone Motor to boot? Really???

    Forgive me for not buying into the BS hype this time. I fell off that runaway train at least a decade ago.

  86. 86 motojefro Jan 15th, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    I like # 8. I might be so bold as to say I helped start it. Raven-moto

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