Harley-Davidson And The Confederate Flag

harley-davidsonr-confederate-flagHarley-Davidson will no more license products featuring the Confederate flag. The Confederate battle flag has always been a polarizing issue. According to a recent CNN/ORC poll, U.S. public opinion 57% of Americans see it as a symbol of Southern pride and not aa a statement of racism.

But that all changed last month when a white gunman, 21-year-old Dylann Roof, killed nine African-American worshipers in a Charleston church. After the massacre, photos quickly surfaced of Roof holding the battle flag, which he revered as a symbol of white supremacy.

The racially motivated attack triggered a national wave of sympathy and renewed calls to have the battle flag removed. Early this Thursday morning July 9th, the House of Representatives voted 94-20 to remove it from the South Carolina’s statehouse grounds, giving final approval to a bill that passed the Senate earlier in the week. The bill now goes to Gov. Nikki Haley, who has said she will sign it into law. Many Harley dealers are currently offering “while they last” their final supply of tee shirts featuring the Confederate flag.

98 Responses to “Harley-Davidson And The Confederate Flag”


  1. 1 Chuck C. Jul 9th, 2015 at 9:17 am

    so if someone kills a bunch of people and has videos with the American flag we are going to ban that flag ????????????? just asking

  2. 2 Steal Your Face Jul 9th, 2015 at 10:23 am

    I’m not from the South and don’t fly the flag, but this political correctness crap has got to stop. Taking the Dukes of Hazzard off the air and now H-D. Both used the Confederate Flag in the 70’s and 80’s and both were definitely not racist. You’d think that with a Black (?) president, race relations would change for the better, but this ass backward President has made race relations go backwards about 40 years.

  3. 3 John Jul 9th, 2015 at 11:01 am

    I haven’t bought anything from H D in years nor do I intend to in the future so whatever the MoCo does is of no concern to me. My older bike runs fine and better parts are available in the aftermarket if I need anything.
    As far as this whole anti anything southern thing going on lately, I have my Confederate Battle Flag along with the Gasden Flag flying proudly in my yard. Don’t like it ? Don’t look.

  4. 4 Tom Ryan Jul 9th, 2015 at 11:05 am

    Steal Your Face: You’re right about all of this in your face political correctness crap. It’s no different than what’s coming out of Hollywood and the media. They would have you believe that the gay population in the U.S. is 20% or more, when in actual fact it’s only about 2% of the total population. Have you ever noticed when liberals get everything they want and they’re still the most miserable people in the world? They say liberals are suppose to be the most tolerant people in the world. This is only true until you disagree with them. Don’t you find it amazing how the minority controls the overall population? Like Michael Savage says, ‘Liberalism is a mental disorder!’

  5. 5 BillB Jul 9th, 2015 at 11:06 am

    Where does this stop? Where has our collective sanity gone? I completely respect people’s right to be offended. So be offended and shut the heck up.

  6. 6 Pat in Texas Jul 9th, 2015 at 11:07 am

    Another iconic American company caving into the PC game dumped on this country by the current DC administration. It’s a knee jerk reaction, so don’t throw away your stars and bars yet. It’s a shame that the young idiot that shot up the SC church used the confederate flag in his posts, which actually had an opposite affect to what he was trying to accomplish. it’s amazing watching all the pussy politicians get in line to condemn the flag as being racist, when most of them probably don’t even understand it’s history. Shame on the USA for letting it go this far.

  7. 7 Dale Jul 9th, 2015 at 11:47 am

    My respect for H-D just dropped even further. Politically correct cowards.

  8. 8 bigitch Jul 9th, 2015 at 11:58 am

    wonder when the motor company will drop the skull logo? after it is acssociated with satanism?

  9. 9 Doug Jul 9th, 2015 at 12:18 pm

    The irony of the comments is thick. If the Stars & Bars battle flag doesn’t at least in part represent racism does it represent dividing the USA at all to you? You get all high & mighty & overly patriotic & then want to defend a symbol that tried to destroy this great nation. That’s pathetic. More pathetic than political correctness gone haywire.

  10. 10 richards Jul 9th, 2015 at 12:48 pm

    My second attempt to post (I’ve had a lot of posts recently that never show up). Harley is correct. Anyone who does not understand what the stars and bars stand for need to do a little research. The S&b are to a large degree a racist symbol.

  11. 11 richards Jul 9th, 2015 at 12:49 pm

    3rd attempt tp post. Harley and Doug are correct!

  12. 12 TJ Martin Jul 9th, 2015 at 12:55 pm

    The majority of you are horribly misinformed and completely wrong . The Confederate flag is the very symbol of slavery and bigotry in this country and should of been put away in a museum years ago . Simply stated .. you don’t fly the flag of the losing side especially when that losing side was responsible for so many atrocities and darn near splitting this Country in two for one reason and one reason only . Slavery is what maintained the South’s economy .e.g. Greed . Period !

  13. 13 Nitschke Jul 9th, 2015 at 1:20 pm

    The skull is the symbol of satanism? Since when?

  14. 14 M.J.H. Jul 9th, 2015 at 1:22 pm

    Right on Doug, the flag of treason, and a bunch of losers.

  15. 15 Max Frisson Jul 9th, 2015 at 1:24 pm

    What this really effect is a number of HD dealerships in the South who use the Bars & Stars in licensed product Tshirts. As a HD dealer you must buy your store tshirts that have the HD logo on them through a couple of licensed vendors. These are the effected companies.

  16. 16 cafesportytc Jul 9th, 2015 at 1:32 pm

    TJ, something only becomes a symbol of bigotry in hatred if you allow it to… personally I could care less. People allow to much b.s. to have power over their lives…

  17. 17 BigWave916 Jul 9th, 2015 at 1:33 pm

    T.J. Martin authority on everything. Period!
    \

  18. 18 Doug Jul 9th, 2015 at 1:57 pm

    to those that want to defend the Stars & Bars flag & display it outside the context of museums….

    Fundamentally, it can be argued that you are not much different than the hypocritical, radical islamic fcktard that stands on the NYC corner claiming he has a right to say, “Death to America & democracy” and whatever b.s. he says. The very land he stands on is giving him that right. It must suck existing as a living, breathing Hypocrisy

    Think about that the next time you want to defend a flag that tried to defeat the nation that gives you that right.

    It took just about 2-3 generations of people since the American Revolution before the losing Confederates relied on the same enemy to try to win the Civil War. One compelling reason that would cause such short-term memory loss related to such a triumphant win for all of humanity is ….

    the greed that went with owning slaves, which existed throughout those hundred years.

  19. 19 CW Jul 9th, 2015 at 2:06 pm

    Overdue, smart move by HD.

  20. 20 Joe Lomanaco Jul 9th, 2015 at 2:19 pm

    cafesportytc:

    Well said, “something only becomes a symbol of bigotry in hatred if you allow it to”
    Myself I don’t smoke, drink or support the confederate flag, if you want it’s your choice.
    I live in California by law I must wear a helmet, sometimes I don’t mind, sometimes I do.
    What I’m saying is it’s all about choices.

  21. 21 1550tc Jul 9th, 2015 at 2:36 pm

    wonder when the motor company will drop the skull logo? – no kidding, they will whore it out till someone kills someone wearing a skull T shirt

    enough of this PC crap ……..its like a 1-2 punch with this flag controversy and Donald Trump

    how about the sports teams, you have another 100000000 hour debate

    going to be a sad day when UND drops the fighting souix name ………or the black hawks

    on that cops show wasn’t just about every bad guy caught on it wearing a HD wife beater or regular HD t shirt ?

  22. 22 Tom Jul 9th, 2015 at 2:44 pm

    Fighting for their right under the constitution to leave the union,Lincoln’s unconstitutional acts. There were atrocious acts by both sides and blacks and indians owned slaves and what about indentured servants who were treated as less then property. The teaching in churches and schools of learned hatred . When does all this crap matter except to the PC’ers.

  23. 23 Marcus Jul 9th, 2015 at 3:52 pm

    Symbols matter. The “battle flag” (it is not the Stars and Bars which actually refers to the first National Confederate flag) largely languished except at civil war monuments and cemeteries. The civil rights movement and federal enforcement in the 50s-70s saw a resurgence of use as a symbol of southern resistance by state governments. This is when the flag was put up over the SC statehouse and many others. Most states have since dropped it in whole or as part of their state flag.

    Regardless, of one’s opinion, the flag represents hate to a significant number of persons, and for this reason should be removed from flying over official government institutions.

    Individuals and corporations are of course free to fly the battle flag in public and on their own private property. Individuals and corporations (NASCAR?) can disallow its display on their own private property. Or as the Motor Company, Walmart and most other large companies have decided, to not associate with this symbol anymore. You are free to support, or not, their decisions.

  24. 24 Kroeter Jul 9th, 2015 at 4:04 pm

    The bigger question is how do we stop killings like that? Not so easy of an answer, so let’s deflect that concern to something we can all blame, a flag. Weak.

  25. 25 NoH2oh Jul 9th, 2015 at 4:27 pm

    Anyone recall the 1977 HD Confederate Edition? For shame HD, for shame…..

  26. 26 Blackmax Jul 9th, 2015 at 6:35 pm

    Ok, I waited & now here we go !!
    for most of you regulars out there In Cyril-land
    You know (not hard to guess) I live in the great Commonwealth of Kentucky
    Lots of my good friends & biker pals see this as an assault on their heritage
    & in part they are right !!
    But there are 2 sides to every story, as I have tried to explain to them more than once.
    I, as a Black man (yes, really, I am !!) do see both sides…
    I see them wearing the Stars & Bars not as a intimidation factor
    but a sign of where they are from & damn proud they are to be Southerners.
    But as I explain to them, somewhere, somehow, whether by hook or by crook,
    that flag as a symbol was corrupted !!!
    By the Klan, the bigots, the racist skinheads & just plain people who did nothing
    about those guys & who said nothing to see “Strange Fruit” hanging from a tree ,
    It is a symbol of fear & hatred to most black people
    Just like the Swastika, which also was an innocent symbol in many cultures
    before the Nazis corrupted it & became an anathema to most any normal person, Jewish or not !
    Do I want to see the Feds mandate it out of existence, Hell No !!
    If you want to fly those colors, be my guest
    But also be aware, just like any other symbol (patches, colors, rags, etc) it invokes reaction,
    sometimes a violent reaction & do we really need more of that these days ????
    By the way I think it’s very telling that a white female SC congresswoman who is a descendant of Jefferson Davis, himself, got very emotional and called for the removal for the Battle flag from
    state grounds. She herself calling it a symbol of Hate !!!!
    The SC state senate has voted to remove the Battle flag from flying over state property
    & it will come down tomorrow / Friday !!!!
    There, I’ve said my piece, take it for what it’s worth !!!
    Let the debate/argument / fight / bloodbath rage on !!!!!

  27. 27 richards Jul 9th, 2015 at 6:49 pm

    It sounds as if some are saying a flag can only be a symbol of hate if WE allow it to happen. In that case, I guess the swastika might be acceptable….all WE need to do is to decide that it’s ok? Give me a break!

  28. 28 Heavy Metal Jul 9th, 2015 at 7:17 pm

    Taking the flag away isn’t going to do one thing towards stopping racism, we need to start with the #1 racist in the country. Somehow he got elected twice.

  29. 29 John Jul 9th, 2015 at 8:11 pm

    To the politically correct out there, you have your opinions and we have ours. Your disagreement with ours doesn’t make you correct, nor does it consern most of us that you disagree.
    I see lots of things I disagree with but don’t expect others to change for me. Maybe you self righteous offended types so do the same.
    As for the flag issue, I’ve already stated my belief, don’t like it don’t look.

  30. 30 Doug Jul 9th, 2015 at 8:12 pm

    clarifying my last comment…

    Less than 100 years elapsed between the end of the American Revolution and the start of the American Civil War, which means just 2 or 3 generations of people existed between those wars. That relatively short timeframe is important to remember when you also consider the fact that the Confederates relied on the British to try to win the Civil War.

    Imagine being a teenager or someone in their 60s during the Civil War – your father, grandfather, or great grandfather would have defeated the British. Not long after those ancestors were buried did the southern traitors seek British help. Why? Because they couldn’t handle the declaration that All Men Are Created Equal.

    —-

    As if that wasn’t bad enough…less than another 100 years later (in the 1950’s & 60’s), this nation, which had the courage to make that Declaration to all nations, had to go through the violent Civil Rights Movement. Why? because not enough people called bullshit soon enough following the 1860’s through present day.

  31. 31 James just another Crazy Kiwi Jul 9th, 2015 at 8:31 pm

    The Stars and Bars can be seen all around the world, allot of our indigenous Maori Street Gangs used to wear it.
    Thing is it has morphed into a symbol of Rebellion. The slavery back ground to it is lost in other countries and possibly the younger generations of Americans.

    The Maltese Cross is also a symbol of rebellion and probably has far eviler connotations.

    See Jesse James !!

    If you try and take a symbol or a way of life away from any peoples (ask the Scott’s) you only make them more determined to hold onto it and proclaim it more loudly .

    Education not eradication is the only way to make positive change. Rules are made to be broken and for some who only see this as a symbol of rebellion they will only get angry about it.

    Those white folk who see it as a symbol of the old South will not be changed by this. They are ignorant and dumb. They will not change.

    Wonder if the number of Stars and Bars Tattoos have suddenly increased in number ??

    Symbols mean different things to different people. Ignorance comes in all shapes, colours and sizes.

    I Hope I have not upset too many people as this is just an observation from the other side of the World

  32. 32 Nathan Jul 9th, 2015 at 10:46 pm

    What evil intentions does the Maltese Cross have ? Are you talking about the Crusades? If so then the Crusades were a response to Muslim conquest of Christian lands. The Iron Cross was adopted by the 3rd Reich just like they adopted the Swastika, neither were created by the 3rd Reich.

    The Confederate Battle Flag only became prominent and started being used as State symbols as a response to Federal Government Civil Rights push. The flag was adopted by Dixicrats as a symbol of their defiance to Civil Rights being pushed by Northern Democrats. Georgia adopted the Flag as a State symbol in 1956 and South Carolina in 1961. So the modern use of the flag is directly a result of it being adopted as a symbol of opposition to Civil Rights.

  33. 33 Sid Jul 9th, 2015 at 11:18 pm

    @John – easier to spot your traitorous ilk

  34. 34 nicker Jul 9th, 2015 at 11:24 pm

    RE:
    “….all WE need to do is to decide that it’s ok? …”

    Who’s this “WE” your talking about… do you have a frog in your pocket….???

    Look, being a biker means you decide for yourself.
    To me, as a European transplant, the Confederate flag is simply an historic insignia.
    But then so too are the Nazi symbols….. They are just insignias to me.

    If you allow others to use symbols, words, or behavior to influence you, then you allow them control over you.

    Any political constituency can mobilized to enact legislation and it it effects public buildings, then that is their constitutional right (given they accomplish goal legally). On the other hand, we as voters can preempt them, that too is our constitutional right. And a private company is free to do what they think their market sector requires.

    However, individuals who allow Political Correctness to dictate how they behave, weather it”s how they dress, who they wave at, or what they believe….. Whoever or whatever they are, these are not Bikers.

    IMHO
    -nicker-

  35. 35 Pop Jul 10th, 2015 at 3:56 am

    So, in the 60’s my denim had nazi trinkets and the battleflag and various other crap stitched on it. What did I know? I was young and dumb and full of… moving along.
    I don’t remember the person I was then but I’m pretty sure that today me would not spend time in the company of then me. Also pretty sure that I wore that crap to make some furiously silly teenaged statement. Rebel without a clue and whatnot.
    Those affectations were not lost on me though. I passed history class. I knew that those patches and pins represented something horrific to a lot of people, but it wasn’t like I went around goosestepping or pined for the days when blacks and whites didn’t use the same toilets. I have Germanic blood and I was born south of the MD line. I imagine that I figured it was my right, you know, FTW and so forth. (My granddaughter saw my FTW tat and asked what it meant. I told her Feel The Wind).
    Over time my denim became less adorned. The SS stuff vanished, the battleflag vanished, the pins and patches vanished. Finally the cut off vanished.
    I grew up.
    Still riding. The rest is just fluff.

  36. 36 BikerRon Jul 10th, 2015 at 6:31 am

    A sad day for me to see the Confederate Flag come down. The flag to me is a symbol of my Southern heritage. I lost family in the War of Northern Aggression. I have a t-shirt from Lynchburg, TN HD that commemorates the anniversary of the civil war with both the US and Confederate flags on it and a patch of the Confederate flag on my vest and I will continue to wear it proudly.

    I suppose we will now see the Mexican, Muslim, and all other “offensive” flags com down too??

  37. 37 celtdad Jul 10th, 2015 at 7:41 am

    It’s a shame that the vast majority of folks in the US don’t even know what the “Stars and Bars” flag was.
    The flag was rectangular in shape, had a blue field with a circle of 7 stars which represented the original 7 states to secede from the union. There were 3 stripes, red, white and red, that covered the remainder of the flag. It was the first flag of the Confederacy. The flag everyone is so concerned about was a battle flag, actually called the “Southern Cross”, which was initially adopted by units of both the Confederate Army and Navy. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and a huge amount of ignorance. Those that vilify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history.

    Also, it seems that almost everyone fails to recall the issue that caused the war wasn’t slavery. There were slaves in the North also. The US fought the war over money, plain and simple. When the South started to secede, Lincoln was asked, “Why not let the South go in peace?” To which he replied, “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government?” Seeing a very high probability of total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel the Northern aggression and their invasion of the South. Russia freed their slaves in 1869 and the southern states took notice. Many of the plantations in the southern states had already started to free slaves prior to the start of the war and a large number of blacks fought for the Confederacy.

    I don’t live in the south, I despise all forms of bigotry and I don’t have any Southern Cross flags or any other emblems of the Civil War. I believe everyone should learn the truth before ‘spouting off’ about what they think something might mean.

  38. 38 John Jul 10th, 2015 at 8:05 am

    @ Sid
    I suppose you were addressing me with your comment.
    I am a mid 50s guy who joined the military after high school and proudly served my tour. I bought my 1st Harley with my Navy pay back in 1977 and have been riding since. I’ve earned the right to voice my ideas, what have you done besides blab your gums on the internet ?

  39. 39 BobS Jul 10th, 2015 at 8:56 am

    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America…and no others. ESPECIALLY those who went to war against the republic for which it stands.

  40. 40 Jay Horton's Private Shop Jul 10th, 2015 at 9:56 am

    Time heals all wounds and not the divisiveness that has driven this issue. Jobs and education are what we need not more frivolous finger pointing and infinite debate. Best Later Jay

  41. 41 Bigalyts Jul 10th, 2015 at 10:29 am

    Cyril, you no how to keep your Blog in the face of “Pop Culture” at least for all the Bikers. I can hear it now, “Cyril Says”…. Good job. Back to the feature story from the Grand Moo Pooo of the Motorcycle Industry, HD. They no what is Politically correct or they thin they do. I got s pretty good feeling that as a Business Decision the elimination of all Confederate Merchandise makes do$$ars & sense. Who do I get in touch with at HD, I would like to buy every piece of Merchandise left with the Confederate Flag at the right price of course? I am completely Neutral on the Issue, but I put their Customers Choices above all else!

  42. 42 John H. Jul 10th, 2015 at 11:34 am

    Will the MOCO recall the Confederate comemerative models? IIRC there were Confederate models in the mid 80’s.

  43. 43 Boomer Jul 10th, 2015 at 11:59 am

    Thank You celtdad. You nailed it correctly. Funny how history gets all turned around and changed depending on who is telling it.

    I just wish that deranged kid who shot up the church would have had a picture of him with a Gay rainbow flag instead of the Confederate Battle Flag. I wonder what the PC police would do with that. Probably nothing of course.

  44. 44 Jack deagazio Jul 10th, 2015 at 12:24 pm

    I guess that increased the value of the 1977 confederate edition bikes

  45. 45 Zenaldo Jul 10th, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    wow, that sure stirs things up..we are a nation divided it appears..the Civil War was over a long time ago..maybe its time to just move on without the flag..for a number of good reasons..

  46. 46 Boris Jul 10th, 2015 at 4:40 pm

    Screw that stupid flag. It’s the flag of secession and TREASON against the United States. It’s a flag that represents the belief that one man can own another and treat them like cattle. The idea of the Old South has been romanticized. The Confederate cause was not a noble one; it was a cause that promoted a way of life built on the backs of slaves. Today, that flag’s supporters are racists and skinheads. It’s a snide reminder to black Americans that a lot of people would like to turn back the clock so that Jim Crow could have free rein again.

    Again, F*** that flag!!!

  47. 47 mr dick Jul 10th, 2015 at 5:27 pm

    Well, at least they didn’t blame the gun this time.

  48. 48 Toomeyboy Jul 10th, 2015 at 5:40 pm

    Just another distraction to take the focus off of the causes of our country’s real problems.

  49. 49 tholland Jul 10th, 2015 at 6:41 pm

    @Celtdad….Well Spoken My Friend….but I’m afraid that your all-so-accurate words have fallen on deaf ears. It’s a time proven fact that if you tell a big enough lie and tell it often enough, the ignorant sheeple will believe it…and believe me, there are a lot of ignorant sheeple in this grand ole US as well as here on Cyril’s Blog. Knee-Jerk reactions without taking the time to learn the true facts.

    The recent killings were a terrible thing and one would have to be a very callous individual to not feel pain for the families and loved ones of the victims, but this was not caused by a flag, a gun or a group…it was caused by a deranged individual. Another mass-murderer on SSRI drugs. I honestly feel that these drugs are the culprit and they are being passed out like candy to the youth of today. There have been no studies of the long-term effects of the SSRI’s, yet the schools are quick to label active kids as hyperactive or ADHD, then get them on the drugs…it makes things easier for the educators, and big pharma loves it. If as much time and effort was spent on finding the cause for these types of recurring crimes as is being spent on eradicating a flag, maybe we could have some genuine educated answers.

    Until then…Malon Labe

  50. 50 BikerRon Jul 10th, 2015 at 8:12 pm

    The vast majority of Americans think the War of Northern Aggression (Civil War for the Yankees) was fought over the slavery issue, wrong. Slavery was a side issue as there were many of our countrymen enslaved in the Northern part of the US. The war fought over the industrial might of the north versus the agriculture might of the South and the North trying to tell the Southerners what to do. The folks in the South did not like being told what to do by the North, so they left. Kind of like what is going on today in Washington.

  51. 51 James just another Crazy Kiwi Jul 10th, 2015 at 8:18 pm

    Nearly all wars are fought over power and greed. Civil wars especially.
    Freeing the slaves was a righteous by product of the war. An honourable one but it was not the main reason the north fought the war.
    Just like the “weapons of mass destruction” you have to sell war to the masses even if the politicians have to lie more than usual.
    It is easy to win a war much harder to win the peace.

  52. 52 BCinSoCal Jul 10th, 2015 at 8:38 pm

    I really don’t give a shit, but anyone naive enough to think the stars and bars only stands for inbred rednecks pride in the south, it is a symbol of hatred and racism, look at photos or film of any Klan or Arian Nation event, what do they fly to represent them ..stars and bars and Nazi flags.

  53. 53 Boomer Jul 10th, 2015 at 11:59 pm

    Reminds me of a saying I heard many years ago. “You can lead a whore to culture but you can’t make her think”.

  54. 54 CKH Jul 11th, 2015 at 11:50 am

    The Harley-Davidson Confederate Edition was a cross-range limited edition motorcycle produced in 1977. The Confederate Edition consisted of a special commemorative paint scheme of metallic gray paint and ‘rebel’ flag decals on the fuel tank and an army general’s sleeve braid decal on the front fender and which was applied to the Harley-Davidson Super Glide, FLH Electra Glide, Harley-Davidson Sportster XLH, XLCH and XLT models .The Confederate Editions are not displayed in the Harley-Davidson motorcycle museum in Milwaukee, reflecting what is generally believed to be an unofficial disavowal by the company of the bike’s production. Production of the Confederate Edition was as follows:
    FLH Electra Glide = 44
    Super Glide = 228
    XLH Sportster = 299
    XLCH Sportster = 45
    XLT Sportster = 15
    FLHS =15

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  55. 55 Doug Jul 11th, 2015 at 12:13 pm

    @celtdad – you are wrong. You write, “When the South started to secede…” but conveniently skipped over the reasons for succession.

    The following website does not skip over the reasons for secession.

    Read it, including the “About Us” tab for context.

    http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/secession/

    Once you read it, you will see the actual documents from the southern states’ “Declaration of Clauses” include slavery as the primary reason to secede. The other reasons are also tied to slavery issues.

  56. 56 Doug Jul 11th, 2015 at 12:55 pm

    correction: “Declaration of Causes” , not “Clauses”

    http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

    Lincoln had to preserve the Nation and he did so with the “northern aggression” that led to War. What caused this decision? The secession plans of bigoted states.

    Do you need another legit website? How about Yale School of Law? You can’t spin this history.

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

    Mississippi’s declaration of cause is a gem!

  57. 57 John Jul 11th, 2015 at 4:33 pm

    LMAO, some of you guys believe your opinions are so important but are nothing but hilarious.
    Get over yourselves.

  58. 58 Doug Jul 11th, 2015 at 5:39 pm

    These are facts John. You cannot re-write the southern states’ declarations.

  59. 59 bigitch Jul 11th, 2015 at 7:32 pm

    i was traveling through canada in 1970 and at the hotel i stopped at for the night, the manager was mowing the yard and i asked him about the vote to change the Queens flag to the Maple Leaf flag

    he said” they could fly a burlap flag up there for all i care. i just want them to lower taxes’

  60. 60 John Jul 11th, 2015 at 7:40 pm

    Doug
    I’ve never said anything about any declarations except my own. My declaration has always been you have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. Like I previously posted there are plenty things I see that I don’t agree with, but I go my own way,. I don’t expect anyone to change because I think they should and i’m not the one here calling anyone names or dismissing anyone because we disagree on a subject.
    I live my life my way and don’t give a damn what anyone else thinks about it.
    There’s an old code in the biker world, you give respect to get respect and you mind your own business, I guess the new improved motorcycle enthusiast crowd has never learned that.

  61. 61 nicker Jul 11th, 2015 at 10:50 pm

    RE:
    “… I don’t expect anyone to change because I think they should…”

    Certainly Not!…. But….
    All the people Not expressing their “opinions” about how they Nation should function is what’s “fundamental (unconstitutional) changing” America.

    What role slavery played in Southern succession isn’t as interesting as the fact that a study of plantation records indicates that slavery, as a business proposition, was increasingly delivering diminishing returns. Slaves weren’t stupid, their forced productivity continued to decline. And slave owners’ records indicated that maintaining a captive, unproductive labor force was a bad business proposition. So, by all accounts slavery would have played itself out had it been left to its own devices.

    Knowing human nature i suspect that a prime instigator of the secessionist movement was the natural tendency of most humans to resist being told what to do……. I think every Biker understands that proposition..
    Those who don’t should be taking up some other organized activity ….. like Golf……….. 🙂

    -nicker-

    PS
    “…. you give respect to get respect….”

    -NO-
    Respect isn’t “given”… It must be “earned”….

  62. 62 John Jul 12th, 2015 at 8:44 am

    Nicker
    I mostly agree with you but; sadly unless your a member of a constantly offended voting block or give mega-large donations to pac funds, politicians above local government only care about you is if they can use you to further their agenda.
    As far as the slavery issue goes; my ancestors can here to escape a very bad situation in their home country. They arrived with what they could carry on their backs to a slighty better situation, they worked as indentured servants for the rest of their lives. No one in my family ever owned slaves, hell they were slaves, believe it or not their was white slavery in this country. No one living in America today making an “statement” was ever a slave here or truthfully knew an ancestor that was a slave so it’s a non-issue except for political points.
    Give respect to get respect, an excellent way to “earn” respect is to act in a respectful manner. I don’t have to agree with you, hell I don’t even have to like you to respect you, but act like an ass and that’s how you’ll be treated.

  63. 63 Coma Jul 12th, 2015 at 11:35 am

    This country is going to the dogs. Next they’ll outlaw flying the Nazi flag (and using swastika and other Nazi symbols) because someone discovers the fact that that Nazis were responsible for starting a war that cost 50 million lives all told, among them 407.316 American GIs.

  64. 64 Doug Jul 12th, 2015 at 12:06 pm

    John – why are you are assuming the counter arguments are from newer motorcyclists?

    Nicker – slavery playing itself out ? Maybe – but that would be a long, difficult, immoral time to not stand up for what is right. Good illustration why business decisions by themselves are not always wise

  65. 65 BobS Jul 12th, 2015 at 12:30 pm

    Slavery would have played itself out? Dang, I guess there’s no need to outlaw it then. Maybe we should just trust the free market to eventually play out rape, kidnapping, murder…

  66. 66 Blackmax Jul 12th, 2015 at 12:34 pm

    WHOO – WEE !!!
    Look at all of this!!!
    And there are some insightful arguments for both sides
    Discussion is always good that is what a bog was created for
    A forum to express opinion
    Thank you Cyril for letting this fly as much as you have…
    I was not concerned about the slavery issue, that was settled once & for all
    Not concerned about the War between the States, Civil war or whatever you want to call it
    Again the issue was settled a long time ago.
    What I was saying is to have some simple understanding and compassion
    about what has gone on since that time and after.
    Given some of these comments it seems like in the minds of some,
    the issues has not been settled.
    Just think about this, from the end of the Civil War
    up until the high point in the 50′ s & is carried on by some today.
    A group decides that you are not their equal & dedicates themselves to your oppression
    & the denial of your basic civil rights. To that end, they decide to wage a terrorist war on you
    & anyone who looks like you or anyone else that speaks up by way of lynchings, bombings,
    “Jim Crow” laws & any other ways they can to subjugate you & everyone like you.
    Well, you’d have a little taste of what it was like until very recently to be black in America.
    BCinSoCal is right when he says look at every single time the Klan, skinheads, etc gather,
    what do you see as their symbols? The Confederate battle flag & Nazi symbols.
    So if your a black kid back in those dark days & they come to beat or take away your Dad/brother/uncle etc, to find them dead in a tree sometime later (if they found them at all)
    Would you not come to fear & hate the symbols that these people came to represent???
    No not every person from the South was like that & it is ignorant to think so.
    But if there was a majority did not think that way, why would they let the thugs use their revered symbol be used in that way?
    They said nothing & therefore it can be rationalized that they all felt that way because nothing was done to stop it . And it was not just the South either as I remember back in the 50’s Indiana was a very dangerous place to be a black person as the single most influential political group there was was the Klan.
    So maybe this will give some insight into why there are so many people wanting that flag to come down.
    I personally don’t fear those types of people/symbols anymore, as I once did.
    Nowadays, I’m more than able to take care of myself & mine and with that knowledge came a understanding that I have to figure out what the intention is behind the symbol,
    sometimes it is obvious, sometimes it’s not & deal with it accordingly.
    Again, all I was asking for a bit of compassion & understanding from BOTH sides
    when someone who tells you they are offended.

  67. 67 John B. Lurvey Jul 13th, 2015 at 12:29 pm

    Your response or I should say over-reaction to an insane killer holding a miniature confederate flag was certainly uncalled for. A confederate flag as presented is merely a battle flag and is not a symbol of racism. Not only was the confederate flag removed in South Carolina, but they removed the flag pole as well. Now that the blacks have received satisfaction again, they are demanding the removal of a very large monument that is a monument to confederate warriors that lost their lives during the civil war. I am not at all certain why Harley Davidson has taken the totally ignorant position that they have. Blacks do not buy your bikes. The press that you are receiving is mostly negative. I presently ride a road king trike. If I should wear it out, I will never buy another Harley or even repair parts. If you had done a modicum of research into why all countries fly battle flags in time of war you would have discovered that the flag identifies the location of the bulk of your forces and if you are lost you make your way toward your flag. The flag has other uses as well. The confederate battle flag never has and never will represent racism and you, Harley Davidson, should have simply minded your own business. You are in the business of marketing motorcycles and not a group of low life politicians making moronic decisions for a few votes. Two of my biker friends cancelled the purchase of two new Harleys. I believe that is going to occur with greater frequency. You have assisted our scumbag politicians with the removal of another civil right guaranteed us by our Constitution. You as well as your staff are probably ignorant enough not to realize the damage that you have done, and I do hope that it comes back to haunt you. If I wish to fly a confederate flag, I will simply purchase one on line. Your ignorance will effect your bottom line in a very negative way. Knowing that, I am selling my Harley stock. The blacks that created this problem are to be laughed at and certainly not taken seriously. We are talking about people that are poorly educated, unemployed as a result of their stupidity, live their entire lives on handouts given to them by the white population. In the way of payback, they bring armed robbery, rape, murder, rioting, etc. to the table and expect white to welcome their sorry behavior. You,harley Davidson have played into their black hands and I believe it will cost you dearly. On the next occasion that you decide to take a political position, I suggest that you employ a historian to determine if you have taken an accurate position. A better idea is to stay out of politics and mind your own business.

  68. 68 John Jul 13th, 2015 at 2:42 pm

    Well since I posted a reply to Doug and Blackmax over 30 hrs ago and it has yet to post on this page I surmise the politically correct moderator(s) must be hard at work protecting free speech.
    The comment contained no derogatory names or attempt to shame anyone as some has attempted here, it was an honest response to the subject.
    Well that’s fine cause it hasn’t changed anything and my flags are flying in the breeze just fine.

  69. 69 hark Jul 13th, 2015 at 4:35 pm

    I guess the attack on the American Flag will have to come next…there was slavery in the north as well as in the south

  70. 70 J.Diamond Jul 13th, 2015 at 7:58 pm

    This is how book burnings and fascism begins; censoring a symbol, then a word, then a phrase… It began with removing God from schools and courthouses. Tell me, are either better now, or worse?

  71. 71 nicker Jul 13th, 2015 at 11:01 pm

    Well,certainly not “worse,” but certainly not all that much “better.”

    In the late 60 a “Berkeley Liberal” friend went to visit family in Pennsylvania. A planned family wedding was causing some controversy in that the bride to be was marrying a “black boy.” As a hard core Progressive, my friend was quite pleased to see some evidence of racial barriers coming down. At the day of the wedding she was disappointing to find that the groom was Italian.

    In the 70’s my sister went to college in Carolina but transfer back to the CA because she couldn’t handle the open “bigotry.”

    A month ago My sister-in-law talked to her grand son who was working back-East on a circle track team. He told her that racial epithets were very common and much more pervasive than anything going on at home in CA.

    Yes we’ve come a long way, but we still have a long way to go.
    The point is simply this….
    There is no legislative cure for stupidity or bigotry. It simply has to work itself out, person to person, one relationship at a time.

    The alternative is to try and “enslave everyone equally” …. and some think that’s what’s being contemplated now …….

    -nicker-

  72. 72 Chris Jul 14th, 2015 at 8:22 am

    Well stated, Nicker.

  73. 73 Mot Jul 14th, 2015 at 11:14 am

    Much to do about nothing there is much more important things in the world to take care of that to worry about a flag every flag from every nation I’m sure somebody thinks is hateful

  74. 74 Tee Jul 14th, 2015 at 2:02 pm

    He was also photographed with the American Flag…. This country is doomed, we are now a “race” nation, we are no longer unified. If you are offended by everything in this Country MOVE…..

  75. 75 kim craig Jul 16th, 2015 at 11:37 am

    This crap about the confederate flag has got to stop. I was born and bred in the south and I am proud of my heritage. What has become of our beloved country???

  76. 76 Pop Jul 16th, 2015 at 5:17 pm

    I’m proud of my roots too. American. I was born in the north, north of the equator that is. I long ago got tired of listening to the “be true to your roots” stuff I heard growing up a southern boy. It got old hearing that geography and local history was who I am. Well, I like my CDB and Lynyrd but I like all rock ‘n roll. I cut my own trail.

    I am kin to some flat ignorant folks that never got up the gumption to go over the hill and see what was on the other side. They holler about how the black man is the problem (similar to rants here and elsewhere) when their own lack of ambition and reliance on “my proud southern roots” pretty well sowed the seeds of their misery for them.

    I ride and I share my table with some brothers that don’t see how silly and scared they sound when they get to ranting especially when the nonsense is plain old racist nonsense just dressed up in buzzwords and flimflam. There’s some of that right here as well. Cartoon bigots swearing up and down how if only everybody else would join the band we could all be in high cotton.and if we don’t, then it’s all of us going to be to blame when the man come sneaking in the night to snatch the flag and the long gun and the still.

    I used to buy that talk. Hell, I used to talk that talk. I might be wrong to have quit all that… but I don’t think so. I’m still riding and I have ridden with black guys on Harleys so there’s another unicorn that some of you never saw from your side of the hill.

  77. 77 Steve Rose Jul 16th, 2015 at 5:46 pm

    Well, looks like Honda or can -am for me from now on….if you’re going to be such p.c. pusses, then I won’t buy your product. Screw U Harley Davidson!

  78. 78 tammy miller Jul 16th, 2015 at 6:21 pm

    Always respected HARLEY DAVIDSON and what it stood for,until now. cant believe harley has buckled under this crap? very disappointed,heartbroken for HARLEY DAVIDSONS loss of courage.

  79. 79 Justin Jul 16th, 2015 at 8:58 pm

    For all of you ignorant and undereducated people, the confederate flag does not in any way represent racism or slavery. You might want to learn history before you comment on it. Fact: more slaves were owned by Yankees than southerners. In fact, in 1865, the emancipation proclamation only freed slaves from southern owners. Owners in Delaware, a northern state, didn’t free all the slaves until 1902. Robert E Lee, freed his slaves in 1862, 3 years before the proclamation. There was actually a regiment of free, former slaves, that fought by their own accord, for the south. Last but not least, Lincoln himself owned slaves even after the proclamation. The only reason his slaves were freed is because someone shot him. In other words, he had to die to free his slaves.
    These are only a few true facts about the civil war. Educate yourself before you try to tell others about history.

  80. 80 Don from PA Jul 17th, 2015 at 12:34 pm

    Doug calling the southerners who voted to leave the union traitors is disgusting.
    They voted to end their statehood for many reasons not just slavery. The federal government voted 3 times in favor of their slave state status, once when they first entered the Union, a second when they rewrote the Constitution (after the Articles of Confederation our first Constitution failed) and once during the Missouri Compromise (that big line that separates the south from the north that runs from the east coast out to Nevada).
    The fact that you used the term traitors proves your ignorant of history and the fact that you support an iconic symbol of American defiance bending to the will of the liberal left proves that you are one of them.

    The Stars and Bars didn’t even exsist until 6 years before the end of slavery, and is actually either named the Southern Cross (rectangular flag) or the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia (the square flag).
    Bikers should be crying over the fact that HD has become what it has.

  81. 81 John Jul 17th, 2015 at 12:52 pm

    Pop
    You gotta be kidding me; long racist nonsense, buzzwords and filmflam, cartoon bigots, really ? Obviously you haven’t read many posts here, wanna read racist flimflam buzzwords go read your cohorts posts about the subject. Talk about nonsense, the politically correct crowd must use derogatory words to shame detractors into compliance. No civilized discussion from your side, none, comply or we demean you is the game plan, well bring it because it doesn’t work with anyone but the weak willed.
    I worked in and around the Chicago area many times over the years, some the most segregated, racist people
    I’ve ever met were well north of the Macon Dixon line. Funny how that works out huh, well maybe NOT.

    No one is telling you what flag you can fly and no one
    will tell me what flag I’ll fly.

  82. 82 John Jul 17th, 2015 at 12:56 pm

    Don from PA.
    + 1
    Much respect.

  83. 83 Lucy Jul 17th, 2015 at 3:54 pm

    Here are just a few facts.

    – The word racism wasn’t used until 1933, (Mirriam-Webster) long after the Civil War was represented by the Confederate flag.

    – Slavery existed in the colonies from 1619 and was legal under the American flag from 1776 – 1865. That’s ALL the way through the Civil War until 6 months after. That’s also 89 years vs the 4 1/2 under the Confederacy.

    – The harsh and cruel slavery rules were created by the northern states. (Ask me for proof)

    – Gov’t, & people, find it easier to falsely assign negative attributes to the Confederate flag rather than stand up to the hate groups who negatively co-opted it. If the public were educated about who’s actually responsible for all the hatred, racism, & bigotry then maybe we could see positive change.

    – Senator Pinckney was one of the few black legislatures that voted to move the Confederate flag to that monument. He didn’t participate in race baiting politics and bravely stood against other black legislatures, his black constituents, and the NAACP with his decision. He was a good, decent man who believed in compromise. We should learn from his example.

  84. 84 Doug Jul 17th, 2015 at 7:57 pm

    Don from PA – you sound like a crier. Am I ignorant of history ? No, I provided actual documents written by the seceding states that support my points above:

    1. They wanted to leave the USA – I first mentioned that flag represents dividing this nation
    2. Reasons for leaving were spelled out by their Declaratuon of Causes which are full of bigoted writing

    Cite actual sources to support your claims or counter the points that have been proven above by the southern ink & paper.

  85. 85 Rob Jul 17th, 2015 at 8:31 pm

    Pure and utter bullshit! This PC crap has got to end…fuck all the little pussies that cant handle the bullshit life has for ya!

  86. 86 John Jul 18th, 2015 at 12:41 am

    Doug
    You’re coming across as somewhat anal with your whole posting links fetish. It’s 2015 not 1861, the people of that time felt their arguments were legitimate to act so they did. The fact you don’t approve of what they did is immaterial and of no concern so get over it.
    It’s our flag and we’re going to fly it if we want to, we don’t need anybody’s, that includes you, permission.

  87. 87 Doug Jul 18th, 2015 at 12:26 pm

    john – history cannot be rewritten or made to fit to suit some other purpose. I don’t give a damn if anyone thinks my view is immaterial because the factual evidence is in the actual historical records for all to know what was being thought, written, and done. You may have a problem with the provided links but they do not lie or twist history. No one can refute those documents. I encourage anyone to have even a glance at them.

    You want to fly the Confederate flag & believe it represents something else then that’s your right to do so, as granted by the nation that won.

    —–

    Northern politicians & founding Fathers that had slaves represent, in part, that politicians were probably not as great as the people they represent back then too. A reminder that must change.

  88. 88 John Jul 18th, 2015 at 5:38 pm

    Doug
    I’m not trying to change or rewrite history, I’m not concerned about it at all as far as the flag goes. It’s totally immaterial to me, my ancestors were repressed under the rule of both the British flag and the American flag. If I chose to do so I could drag out old documents, hash out old wounds and press an argument towards both of those flags being offensive. What good is that, what does anyone win in all that, is there a prize ?
    The people of those times did what they did for their own reasons, they were trying to survive in the world they knew. Nothing we do today is going to change any of that just like my dragging old wrongs out wouldn’t change anything for my ancestors. Pointing fingers and attempts to shame others ancestors or pretending we can erase the past by removing items of the past that we disagree with is foolish and a total waste of time. We are so coddled and force fed what we are expected to believe that truthfully if your ancestors didn’t do anything people today find questionable they must have lived very boring lives.
    We have things happening in this country right now, today, that’ll determine the future of this country, hell if we’ll even have much of a future. If as much effort was given to those items as what is given to removing history we would be better off.

  89. 89 Doug Jul 19th, 2015 at 12:46 pm

    If it is immaterial to you then you should have no concern & no reason to comment about the flag being removed from a United States government building &/or businesses removing it from their brand.

    The Confederate flag does not represent the USA, so it shouldn’t be on government property. If a business doesn’t recognize it as their brand then they remove it. Simple concept.

    You still have the right to fly the flag as granted by the nation that won & declared All Men Are Created Equal.

    After all of these comments, what does the Stars & bars flag represent to you?

  90. 90 Willie Jul 19th, 2015 at 9:59 pm

    I see many of you calling the South Treasonous for Seceding, funny , guess you should not celebrate the 4th of July. [><]

  91. 91 Dave Smith Jul 20th, 2015 at 7:54 pm

    “Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you wit experience”

    Mark Twain

  92. 92 WBurton Jul 21st, 2015 at 8:47 am

    Confederate soldiers ,sailors, and Marines that fought in the Civil war were made U.S. Veterans by an act of Congress in in 1957, U.S. Public Law 85-425, Sec 410, Approved 23 May, 1958. This made all Confederate Army/ Navy/ Marine Veterans equal to U.S. Veterans. Additionally, under U.S. Public Law 810, Approved by the 17th Congress on 26 Feb 1929 the War Department was directed to erect headstones and recognize Confederate grave sites as U.S. War dead grave sites. Just for the record the last Confederate veteran died in 1958. So, in essence, when you remove a Confederate statue, monument or headstone, you are in fact, removing a statue, monument or head stone of a U.S. VETERAN.

  93. 93 Dwight Jul 23rd, 2015 at 5:41 pm

    guess willie g. Lost his balls!!!

  94. 94 Doug Jul 27th, 2015 at 1:38 pm

    “So, in essence, when you remove a Confederate statue, monument or headstone, you are in fact, removing a statue, monument or head stone of a U.S. VETERAN.”

    Your conclusion does not apply to the topic above which is removing a non-US flag from US property. Those laws you cite (which acknowledged human beings as veterans of a now unified nation [and who were citizens of the same nation before they tried to secede] ) dont apply the same way as removing an object , such as a flag, from US govt property that does not represent the United States of America. We are not talking about actual veterans. We are talking about a removal of an object from a United States’ building and a business’ brand image.

    Fly whatever flag you want to f’in fly on your own property but don’t expect the nation that won to fly the defeated flag. Democracy at work…majority have voted for its removal.

    @Willie – um, the Fourth of July celebrates a victory over…never mind

  95. 95 Blackmax Jul 29th, 2015 at 4:54 pm

    Man, the sheer vitriol of some of the comments
    I just don’t know what to say ??
    for someone to come on this blog & say blacks do not buy H-D
    or I’m never buying another H-D. Sorry, got some bad news for ya !!!
    Have any of you looked at Harley’s marketing focus lately?
    It is to Hipsters, Women, Blacks & Hispanics (the later the Iron Elite & Harleylistas)
    The target market for heavyweight H-D is growing older & dying off, sorry, but it is true
    To survive H-D has had to focus on new markets for revenue
    Top look at some of the Iron Elite & Harleylista bikes they are just as “tricked out”
    if not more so, than just about anything in the magazines nowadays
    (Uhmm, “Urban Bagger” magazine sound familiar to anyone ??)
    That attitude / comment alone made me come back to this to writeand LAUGH !!!!
    According to the quarterly report, they put out,
    yes, they are down a bit, but I’m sure they will not miss you or any of your ilk !
    Just like the marketplace always settles things like this
    Wal-Mart, H-D, Target & all the rest, I think will do just fine !
    I’m done now, for good on this subject
    You can’t argue with ignorance and/or hate
    I don’t know why I even tried ????

    P.S. Thanks to nicker & all the others who gave intelligent & insightful comments
    Those I enjoyed reading as always !!!

  96. 96 Al Feb 18th, 2016 at 4:26 pm

    Never thought I would see HD puss out on such a thing. The Stars & Bars have much more meaning than the ignorant politically correct crowd places upon it.
    Thank God for Charlie Daniels and Kid Rock, they get it!!!

  97. 97 mike borruso Apr 21st, 2016 at 11:31 am

    Any & all those that oppose the confederate flag forgot one thing it is a part of our history; They seem to think anyone who wears one or flys it with pride is a racist, they are full of it ;my father was from the south & he was not racist; I think people that are like are douchbags; I wear one with pride & am not a racist. Political correctness does not belong in our vocabulary or our country.

  98. 98 Ron May 6th, 2016 at 7:50 pm

    I am sorry, but people need to learn a little history if they think the Confederate Battle Flag is racist. First thing, the Civil War was fought over taxation without representation. Only after the war had started and the North wanted more supporters did Lincoln bring in the Blacks and Slavery issue. He was hoping to get Blacks to rebel against their “masters”. If you actually look at who owned slaves, The NORTH had more. If you want to be politically correct and scream that all whites are racist, that is fine by me as long as you don’t expect me to join in on your crusade. Honestly, Right at this moment in history, the most racist people I see are Black Men. I am a nurse by profession, and I don’t care what color, race, religion, profession, attitude you have: I will take care of you to the best of my ability. So please GROW A BRAIN and stop claiming racism and how everyone treats you so bad, and go out and treat someone else GOOD. Please

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Cyril Huze